In a bit of a sticky situation with a straight up stuff for stuff trade, hoping to get some input on peoples thoughts about what is fair.

The situation is:

Both myself and another traded a good deal of items. The value is in the hundreds of USD. The package to me arrived approximately 2 weeks ago and the package I sent out hasn't arrived and it has been close to 5 weeks since shipped. The person I am trading with specifically requested that I send the package to him/her valued at 15GBP and NOT as a gift for the reason that she/he gets many many packages as gifts and doesn't want to be investigated/charged copious import fees. I consented and shipped the items as requested.

Now while I am sympathetic to the persons situation for not yet receiving their stuff, I am told by that person I have but one fair option:
Return all the items I received at my own expense or pay their value and put in a claim with the postal service to recoup the items value that I sent. ( I can't recoup anything due to the requested shipping desires of the person I shipped to).
To me I was under the impression that the person was aware of the risks of having the item sent the way he/she requested and would therefore take responsibility for them.

This may all be a moot point as the postal service said that its not unheard of for the package to take up to 6-7 weeks due to random customs checks etc...

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Necron AC (click to see current Necron list threads)
Toronto Wargaming Group

Hi!

I have a LOT of experience with this issue. I deal with people world round and these are my suggestions:

1. If you used a cheap method of delivery, wait. Sometimes 2, 3 even 4 times as long as they said it would take. Even parcels sent by more expensive methods never arrive in the so called "average" delivery times. If only 5 weeks have passed, you need to wait 2 months (8 weeks or more) before making any decisions

2. Do NOT send anything back. You are in the drivers seat. If I read correctly the other party wanted it sent this way, thus he cannot make demands (suggestions certainly, demands, NO). If you send it back then it arrives (which you will never really know), he gets both. You lose. You followed instructions, he has to wait.

3. In my experience DO NOT skimp on shipping something overseas. The package MUST be tracked. Yes, I know, it can be expensive. But if one party does not want to flip the bill of such cost then it should be spelled out CLEARLY, that you have NO RESPONSIBILITY if it gets lost or never gets there. You can't have it both ways. If you want to save money (always a good thing), then you must assume the risk.

I personally never agree to send things unless they are by tracked mail. The rare time I make an exception I make it abundantly clear that the risk is SOLELY on the other party.

So in the short term, wait. If another 5 weeks passes then you can make a call.

I personally would point out that you followed his instructions and scan and send the documents you filled out at the post office with receipt and e-mail it to him. You did your part. The risk left on the table is his alone.

I would not send him anything back under any circumstances. For even if it is legitimately lost, why should you be the loser on the deal by paying in full?

At most I may consider giving him HALF. Thus you both lose equally. I certainly would not pay in full, you committed no wrong.

Sometimes people need to be adults and accept that crummy things happen. He SPECIFICALLY asked you to send it that way. I consider it solely his risk and responsibility.

Stand firm.

Primarch

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Well, if you lie on the amount or value and customs checks it and finds its a higher value...well..it all falls on him to pay the difference from what ive seen. But he requested it sent that way, him demanding his stuff back seems like he is trying to scam the crap out of you.

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Primarch is right on all counts. Always track and never skimp on overseas shipping. Furthermore, he's right that it's just not up to you to make amends for lost items when it was his/her request for you to ship things how he wanted, which was without tracking, and without insurance. Also keep in mind that the items could just be delayed in customs - a large or heavy parcel with a low declared value will draw attention and get inspected, further delaying delivery.

At the moment, I'd say his risk, his loss I'm afraid. It does sound a little harsh, but the questionable shipping choice was all on him.

I hope all gets resolved for you!

I really hope the package arrives. There is some really good stuff in it.

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Necron AC (click to see current Necron list threads)
Toronto Wargaming Group

I'll fess up I'm the other half of this deal and I never asked for the package not to be tracked if it had proper tracking we wouldn't be in this mess. I asked him to lower the customs value everyone does it and customs never check values. But if there was proper tracking we would know where its stuck. We were both paying our own shipping I sent my package international signed for. According to all trade laws there are out there if you sell or int this case barter something and it doesn't arrive the sender is fully responsible for reimbursing the receiver. I'm not a complete idiot though but if I was to lose out on so much money it would be my last ever trade that didn't involve cash because its unfair I have upheld my half of the bargain why should I lose out because the half of the deal didn't come through. Until its in my hands its still the responsibility of of Attension to get it to me. I thought we were supposed to have fair trading environment here? How is it fair I lose out because it didn't arrive?

I'd far sooner have the package anyday of the week I'm not unsympathetic either but I never agreed shipping was at my own risk nor did ask you not to have it tracked. Also I received a package from canada a few weeks back its was 1000s of dollars worth the guy was able to insure the package for the correct amount and still lower the value on the customs form. I assumed you'd done that. I've friend in America who does this all the time they don't use the the value on the customs form for insurance they use the value you take the insurance out for leastwise that how she says shes got it set up never had to test it cos the tracing has saved us every time.

Sorry if I come off sounding a little cross but I've been made to be the bad guy here when actually I'm the guy losing out and I don't accept that changing a custom value makes it my fault and I never forced him to to do it nor did I say I wouldn't trade if he didn't at the time he was quite happy to do it with no reservations

Its not normally even risky I receive about between 30 and 50 packages each year the same many of which get lost or returned to the sender as happens with all international shipping from time to time. But I've never had a parcel that just ups and vanishes and a sender who doesn't want to take responsibility for it.

Just last week I had to return something because my parcel didn't arrive from different site I wasn't happy about but returning the guys stuff was fair and honest.

I was never out to make you look like the bad guy I was just asking advice hence why I kept your name anonymous. I am not angry nor blaming anyone so please calm down. For the sake of full disclosure you did specifically say that you didn't want it shipped as a gift and that you wanted the value declared as $15 even after I said I wanted to ship it as a gift, you came across as quite adamant. I wouldn't say I was "happy to do it at the time". The post office wouldn't insure more than $100 value on the package with a declared value so low. As agreed lets give it some more time and likely it will show up just a little delayed. I'll consult with some friends about the actual legal onus for informations sake.

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Necron AC (click to see current Necron list threads)
Toronto Wargaming Group

If I was trading with someone who had chosen not to have a package of trade items tracked or insured then items lost in the post would be a risk they took and I would certainly not expect to refund or return their models.

How come you didn't pay a little extra to post it tracked Atension? For items over say $100 it's always worth posting it tracked, even if you put a lower value on the customs form and/or don't pay for insurance.

You really should have discussed posting the trades tracked as it sounds like different assumptions / postings habits could have caused difficulty now. Do you at least have a receipt showing an item was posted to that address? (we can get one of these for free when posting things in the UK if we ask).

Hope the models turn up eventually! I had a package of epic models from the UK to Oz take close to 3 months one time; it arrived with a sticker on it saying the package could not be flown (some of the models had sharp claws but I was still surprised) so it came surface mail instead.

Well the issue is tracking here, right? Got nothing to do with value.
I'd say if you both agreed on shipping tracked, the blame/responsibility is on the sender. If one party specifically said they don't want tracking, it is their bad luck, I'd say.

I had to learn this in my last deal as well - talk about and specify everything. Even who pays paypal fees. Right deanmon?

Primarch said it all. We really can't do much if post screws up. That's why you never should take the cheap shipping option. Always tracked. If you buy stuff worth hundreds of bucks, why on earth can't you pay 20 xtra to make sure the stuff arrives or if lost it's the posts fault.

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Give it some time. Just this week I had a package arrive 3 weeks later than a package that was sent from the exact same place at the same time. My bet is that yours is stuck in customs.

So presumably it's insured for $100? Must say that sounds a bit odd - why would they insure for this (which is more than the declared value) but not any more? I've never known the insurance to be dependent on the customs value. In fact I normally fill in the customs form afterwards. But, it is at least plausible.

In terms of what is fair, this isn't a sale environment so not sure any law (even assuming you're in the same country) will help you. If this were eBay it would be the sellers responsibility even with proof of postage. Basically the seller assumes all the risk. But this isn't eBay. I supposed the nearest equivalent is paypals buyer protection policy - what does that say? Way back when, it used to be that if you send it in a specific way with proof then that was your part fulfilled, but then the same was true of eBay at the time too.

Its a real shame you're in this position. Why send a package of that value with no tracking and no insurance without discussing the risks? Even if I thought the other person was making that choice, I would be sure to be clear about who held the risk. So, in that vein, a question for deanmon. If atension had said to you "I will send it at that declared value, but it won't be insured so if it goes missing I won't pay the difference", what would you have done? Honestly.

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Agree with Primarch all the way.

Always have tracked for international packages it's worth the extra cost for sure and always agree on risk mitigation before any trades are finalised. Things do go missing in the post or can be delayed by customs so it can be a waiting game.

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I was more offended than angry by being made out to insist on no tracking and a low value when this wasn't the case. I admit I was adamant about the item not being marked as a gift because I fully understand how UK customs law works ( I have to be as I import for my work). To be honest in all my years of trading I have always worked under the assumption its is like trading in person if one side doesn't come up with the goods the other side doesn't get yours. However I left the shipping arrangements with Attension expecting a tracked service on something that large like I used to send to him. I don't understand Canadian postage. I only have rudimentary understanding of US shipping policy because I have a very helpful friend who acts as shipping agent who finds out for me .


Anyhow to calm things down ( I wasn't as Angry as sounded it last night I've no particular ill will towards attension If I've given this idea I'm sorry but his post was very one sided.). I've been reminded my partner of an incident about 4 years ago of some mint Slaanesh stuff from Canada I bought on ebay that took two months to come so apparently it could just be that Canada takes ages to get stuff here. I'm hoping for the items to arrive still I'm not really interested in the cash I only suggested he paid some compensation so he could keep the models I sent him because I'd be dissapointed if I had to send items I needed back. The stuff in the missing box really cool I will be very dissapointed and sad to think of it lying somewhere unsed due to a careless postman.


We had already agreed to wait another 3 weeks to make sure they definitely were either going to arrive or not which is still on as far as I'm concerned. To put everyones mind at rest if it came to compensation I'd only be asking attention for £110.00 which is what the items I sent him cost me to acquire and ship even though their real value is more like £250.00 (I got lucky at a carboot sale)


Learning point for me if someone from Canada wants to mark items as gift let them as they can insure it for more I didn't know Canada shipping policy worked like that all I was thinking it would look odd to UK customs having so many overseas gifts in a year.