We have two FAQs:





The first one says you can't use Sniper in an assault when it's on the unit.

The second one says notes on the unit apply to all of its attacks.

Which one is it? Or is sniper a special case because it's a Unit ability (whereas First Strike is a weapon ability)?

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The first is a more specific rule than the second and in this case takes precedence, overriding the more general aspect.

Seems straight forward when placed next to each other; The issue may be though that they're not always going to be in close proximity in any document. Therefore I suggest that the second should add the note regarding something along the lines of ", unless specifically disallowed by the ability" to the last sentence.

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As Jimmy says, the principle is that a special ability applied to a weapon is only used under those specific circumstances. In this case, Sniper is usually applied to a ranged attack but may be applied to a weapon with Base Contact as its range and Assault Weapon as its firepower, making this an "CC only" attack. If applied to a line with 15cm / small arms, this would make it a "FF only" attack. So Howling Banshees only get First Strike when in B-B

Where specified in the Unit notes (Invulnerable save, RA, First strike etc) the ability is applied under all circumstances; so Warp Spiders always have First strike on their assaults whether in CC or FF. If Sniper were applied to the Unit notes it would be used both for shooting and assaults (and make this a very deadly unit as a result).

This distinction is specifically designed to allow some constraints to be imposed on special abilities; simply add another line to the weapon stats if the intention is for it to be restricted or expanded in some way - eg Slow firing or Indirect fire.

Like Jimmy, I have no problems with this approach at all, it allows much greater expression to the unit and weapon definition.

The TL;DR version: what jimmy said, but not quite what Ginger said. Sniper in the notes does NOT mean it applies to both shooting and assaults, because the "applies to all attacks" does not mean "applies to all types of attack" it means "attacks by all weapons not just one". The two FAQs are about slightly different things.

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IMO it's another example of bad rulebook wording and no small amount of interpretation on the part of the FAQs. As far as the rulebook is concerned, sniper is a unit ability, not a weapon one. But the rulebook simply does not say whether it affects shooting, assaults, or both. In the rulebook and in Swordwind, marine, guard and eldar snipers all have sniper as a unit ability.

Then the original 2008 FAQ said this:

This clarified that sniper is supposed to be a unit ability that affects shooting and not assaults, but it also provided a way to make it work in assaults if designed to be so. In that sense Ginger is incorrect: sniper in the notes section does not mean it applies in assaults - indeed that is how it is specified for most sniper units in the game.

First Strike on the other hand is actually described only as a weapon ability in the rulebook, which makes no mention of it is a unit ability, only this:

Implying that it is either applies to close combat OR firefight, never both. Note however that it does explicitly tell you how to handle the combination of First Strike and Extra Attacks. Then Swordwind came along and gave warp spiders first strike in the unit notes, as opposed to banshees who had it in the weapon notes. Thus again the 2008 FAQ has to explain this. It does this by generalising the issue with a Specialist Units FAQ:

It gives First Strike as a specific example. It seems in contradiction with the FAQ for Sniper, but actually they are about two different things - the Sniper FAQ is about shooting vs assault, whereas the Specialist Units FAQ is about "this weapon vs all weapons.

To further confuse the matter, there is a third 2008 FAQ about First Strike and Extra Attacks specifically, which in rules terms only repeats what the rulebook says, i.e. if it is specified for a weapon with extra attacks then it applies only to that weapon's extra attacks. However it explains it in terms introduced by the the Specialist Units FAQ, i.e. the difference between specifying First Strike on a unit versus on a weapon with extra attacks, which is different to how the rulebook explained it. The rulebook explained it in terms of the difference between applying it on a weapon with extra attacks versus a weapon that does not have extra attacks. It's confusing, but all it's trying to do is clarify that when a weapon has extra attacks, those extra attacks represent all of the weapon's attacks - and that the unit's normal firefight/CC value represents some other weapons. Thus giving First Strike to a CC weapon with extra attacks applies it to that weapons attacks, applying it to a regular CC weapon applies it to the unit's general effectiveness in close combat, and applying it to a unit affects the unit's general effectiveness in both CC and FF.

To give a full example:
Chainswords (base contact) (Assault weapon)
Storm bolters (15cm) (Small arms)
Grenades (base contact) (Assault weapon) Extra Attacks (+1)

Here the base CC value comes from the chainswords, the base firefight from the storm bolters, and the extra attack comes from the grenades. Giving First Strike to the grenades would apply it to just the extra attack that came from the grenades. Giving it to the chainswords would apply it to both the chainsword and grenade CC attacks (even if it seems weird). Giving it to the unit as a whole would apply it to all CC and FF attacks.

To illustrate the difference between the Specialist Units FAQ and the Sniper FAQ, you can apply the consequences of the Specialist Units FAQ to Sniper as so:

Sniper Rifles (15cm) (small arms)
Heavy Bolter 30cm AP5+
Lascannon 45cm AT5+
Unit notes: Sniper

This unit has Sniper on all its shooting attacks - HB and lascannon - but not its sniper rifles. This is because Sniper normally affects shooting (and the Specialist Units FAQ doesn't change this), but because it is a unit ability it affects all shooting attacks. When you upgrade marine scouts with Sniper, you are actually giving them sniper for their Heavy Bolter and not their sniper rifles...

Now:
Sniper Rifles (15cm) (small arms) Sniper
Heavy Bolter 30cm AP5+
Lascannon 45cm AT5+

This unit on the other hand only has the Sniper ability on the sniper rilfles (thanks to Specialist Units FAQ), which applies in firefight and NOT in shooting (thanks to Sniper FAQ).

And finally:
Sniper Rifles 15cm AP5+ Sniper
Heavy Bolter 30cm AP5+
Lascannon 45cm AT5+

This unit has Sniper only on its sniper rifle and not on its other weapons (thanks to Specialist Units FAQ), but this applies to its shooting attack as normal and NOT to its firefight (see Sniper FAQ). If the Sniper Rifles had a second line for Small Arms which also had the Sniper ability, then it would apply to firefight too.

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Man that was ridiculously long, even for me

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No problem on the length Kyrt and thanks for the explanation, though I must admit I was basing my explanation on the second FAQ you cited which stated "all actions by the unit". As this was the result of the later Swordwind rules, I presumed they over-rode the original rules (in much the same way that later sections of the basic rules override the rules in the first section)

So we seem to have a conflict here in the FAQ that describe the intended use of the rules. Can we combine all these FAQ into a single definition, and if so, what should the wording be?

Well in a sense it does apply to all actions by the unit, but only "all actions that it can apply to". Just as First Strike only applies to assaults, Sniper only affects shooting. The confusion for Sniper is that there is another FAQ that created the possibility of it applying to assaults but only where specifically denoted (and gave an example of how to denote it).

That's why I say that the FAQs don't actually contradict - they are talking about slightly different effects. The Specialist Units FAQ doesn't change shooting abilities into assault abilities at all, though the "all actions" wording in isolation might make you think so. I think the "actions" wording is just trying to be generic - for example warp spiders' First Strike ability is not really about "attacks by a weapon" but rather their mode of action. Very clumsy though. Clearly, the FAQs could benefit from consolidation and/or more clarity, better wording etc.

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I considered these to be 2 separate things when compiling the FAQ.
The Sniper FAQ is a way to bypass the standard rules for applying casualties in an engagement.
The First Strike FAQ deals with when attacks are made and that is separate from how casualties are applied.
Whilst the FAQ's are a bit clumsy, I believe both are valid (maybe with the addition suggested by Jimmy).
*edit - agrre that the FAQ could be worded better... Any suggestions Kyrt?

Good onya Kyrt/Jimmy/Ginger. Great posts!

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My suggested changes underlined:

Q: Some abilities can apply to either a unit or a weapon. How does this work when a unit is carrying a weapon with such an ability?
A: While the special abilities are generally categorized into “Specialist Units” and “Specialist Weapons” there are some abilities that can apply to either the unit or to a specific weapon. If the special ability appears in the weapon description, it applies only to attacks by that specific weapon. If the special ability appears in the “Notes” section of the datasheet, it applies to the unit as a whole (i.e. all its weapons). For example, if an Assault Weapon is described as First Strike that ability only applies to CC attacks from that weapon, while a unit described as First Strike in the Notes would apply the ability to all assault attacks - CC, FF and any “extra attacks” ability the unit might have. Note however that wherever the Specialist ability is denoted, the ability continues to work in the same way unless the rules say otherwise - for example, First Strike specified in the unit Notes does not apply to shooting attacks, and Disrupt in the unit Notes would not apply to CC or FF attacks. As ever, exceptions will be noted (e.g. see Sniper FAQ).

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I just rewrote this one to try to cover all the bases:

Q: How does First Strike apply to units with Extra Attacks?
A: A unit's basic CC and FF attacks reflect the unit's overall fighting ability, generally represented on its datasheet by its Assault Weapons and Small Arms. Weapons with Extra Attacks on the other hand are considered to be separate weapons, which the unit may use in addition to its other weapons. The unit makes its normal attack using its basic weapons, and any extra attacks using those specific Specialist Weapons.

Specialist Weapon abilities such as First Strike that are specified in a weapon's description apply only to the attacks made with that weapon. Since a unit's basic assault weapons and small arms entries (i.e. those without Extra Attacks) represent the unit's overall fighting ability in CC or FF, specifying First Strike in such a weapon's notes means the ability is applied to all the unit's CC attacks (if it is an assault weapon) or all its FF attacks (if it is a small arms weapon). This would include any extra attacks for other weapons of the same type. On the other hand, specifying First Strike in the description of a weapon with Extra Attacks only affects the attacks from that weapon, and thus the ability is only applied to those extra attacks. Note also that in some cases, Specialist Weapon abilities may appear in the Notes section for the unit (the one at the bottom of the sheet). In such cases the First Strike ability would be applied to all CC and FF attacks the unit makes, extra attacks included.

Finally, note that it is possible that a unit with a mixture of First Strike and normal attacks may find itself unable to use its normal attacks after the initial round of First Strike hits are resolved. This can happen for example if the unit is no longer in base contact with the enemy. In such cases these attacks are lost (e.g. the unit would not get to use its firefight value instead).

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And this one I think is fine really, but just to make it more straightforward to read I re-ordered it so that the normal situation (i.e. shooting ONLY) appears first in the sentence:

Q: Can the Sniper ability be used in an assault?
A: The Sniper Specialist Unit ability applies to a unit's shooting attacks, and does not apply to attacks in assaults unless explicitly stated (for example by specifying Sniper in the description of a Small Arms weapon).

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Hmm, I think it is the "Sniper" ability that is actually causing all the issues, because it is inconsistently presented in the army lists. Usually the location of "Sniper" is intentional - eg against weapon stat lines for ranged shooting or in character unit notes (without shooting stats) who are intended to add a "Sniper" assault. However others are just sloppy (eg Eldar Rangers and Marine upgrade).

If we ignore "Sniper", I suspect that a general FAQ would suffice. Something along the following lines:

Q. How do I use the special abilities that are listed in weapons notes and unit notes?
A. Special abilities listed in the Unit notes are applied under all circumstances including movement, shooting and assault, while those listed against weapon stat lines are only used in those specific situations, either a shooting attack, Firefight (FF) or Close Quarters Combat (CC). EG.

• A Steel Legion Sniper whose weapon is listed as "30cm AP5+ Sniper" only uses this when shooting, not in assault.
  
• Steel Legion Rough Riders are listed as "Infiltrators" in their unit notes allowing them to use this ability when charging into contact. If in base contact with an enemy unit, their chainsword provides a CC attack while their power lance also provides an additional "First strike" Extra attack.
• Eldar Warp Spiders have "First Strike" in their unit notes, so use this in both CC and FF assaults

- - - - - - - - -

Ideally, we really need the "Sniper" stats to be corrected throughout the Compendium. Then the above FAQ would also work for "Sniper". This is not nearly as bad as it sounds - there are not that many units which are incorrectly defined, though Dave would need to agree this (and obviously there is an impact to the various list generators).

Until that occurs, I believe we will need a separate FAQ to cover "Sniper" in all its incarnations. Something like this - though this will definitely need tweaking:-

Q. How should I apply the "Sniper" ability
A. "Sniper" is usually only used in a shooting attack regardless of whether it is specified in the unit notes or against the ranged weapon stat line. However "Sniper" may be used in an assault when in the notes of a unit with no ranged weapon, or where "Sniper" is specified against an assault stat line for the weapon (small arms - FF, or base contact - CC)

This is messy, but I hope it covers everything.

Trying to boil all this down and future proof it:

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I don't think Ginger's is correct, it's not that sniper is misused by placing it in the unit notes - it is supposed to be there, that is how all the units in the rulebook and swordwind do it, and the FAQ clearly states that having it in the notes does NOT mean it works in FF. If anything else uses it differently (e.g. putting it in unit notes to mean "sniper in assault"), it is those that need fixing. Putting an ability in the notes should not automatically convert it from an assault ability to a shooting one, or vice versa.

It'd be fine to reduce down the FAQs, but I'm not sure if it actually addresses the problem?


The problem is that sniper in the unit notes DOES apply to all attacks where applicable. Eldar Rangers don't have Sniper on their CC attacks but it's not because Sniper doesn't apply to "all attacks where applicable", it does. It's just that Sniper by its nature is meant to apply to shooting, so the CC and FF attacks are not applicable. IMO this confusion is entirely because Sniper was later allowed to be put on non-shooting attacks. IMO the original FAQ did a better job of making clear that Sniper is actually a ranged shooting ability except when specifically noted otherwise. You are actually removing that point from the FAQ, and yet the last sentence of this FAQ only makes sense if you know that.

I really think the Sniper issue just needs to be sorted out with a good FAQ by itself. Like the original 2008 one. Not sure why it was shortened to the one in the first post which understandably leads to the confusion this topic is about.

If you really want to generalise, I would say this:



And then a very simple FAQ covering extra attacks which can just regurgitate the rulebook which is already very clear (if you don't want a lengthy explanation of why it is the way it is like in my previous FAQ).

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LoL Kyrt - I think this is where we differ, but only slightly. Your perspective is that all abilities are designed to function within one aspect of the rules whether it is movement, shooting, assault or some other rule section. Therefore this means that "Sniper" should only be a 'shooting' ability, and as such should not be used in assaults.

My view is that the assault rules need some equivalent to "Sniper" to represent special skills - precision 'Ninja' attacks if you like - to allow that extra dimension and colour in Assaults that "Sniper" provides to Shooting. There are a number of Units that seem to need this, while we should also note that Firefighting takes place over 15cm or up to 200metres, the typical distance of many sniper shots in WWII.

As the community has always been very reluctant to set up new Special Rules, people have resorted to using "Sniper" to fill this gap. Unfortunately, the E:A design team removed the distinction between AP and AT in assaults, which makes "Sniper" work incorrectly in Assaults.

If we are to restrict "Sniper" to shooting attacks only (which would certainly simplify things), we will need at least one other Special Rule to cover this aspect in Assaults - like my proposal for "Assassin"

Basically, sniper should always have been a weapon ability rather than a unit note, but it was overlooked, and the faq was an attempt to paper over the cracks.

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I have had another somewhat radical thought.

If we deem "Sniper" to be essentially an AP ability, we could change the definition to be just that, giving -1 to infantry targets *under all circumstances*.

This would go a long way to resolving issues with "Sniper" in assaults and would consequently reduce the number of list changes, though we would still need to make some.
(In the E-UK lists, we would also need to provide a Special Rule (perhaps "Anti-Tank") to replace the use of "Sniper" on the Ulani Tank Destroyer unit.)