GW just turned away from there own previously established work with regards to how the iron hands are, in particular their clan structure, basically they are now black and silver ultra marines.

Once the clans were separate organisations with their own vets and recruits. Now it standard codex for IH. Which, contradicts with the basis of why this list was being done.

Let's not devolve this thread but in summary
-What Orton said above. Totally reworked them to be Codex marines.
-They basically took the entire set of existing fluff and performed a Mat Ward on them ala New'Crons
-The reworked fluff doesn't even make sense for GW (Ummm outside the DSM, the Iron Hands took no part in the Heresy but the bonds forged in the Heresy are why they get along with the Mechanicum!?!? [puff puff puff])
-Sapphire King, a magnum 44 in my mouth
-The Iron everything joke made several pages back actually happened in the Codex. [uuhhhhhhg]


If you want more then read this.
http://thegoodthebadtheinsulting.blogsp ... ammer.html
Pretty full of hyperbole but the underlying points are spot on.

Now I do have to give credit due, I like the bit about a Magos being on the Chapter Council. The little bit of heresy there makes me smile. I just read that as being on a Clan council and suddenly I am happy.

Let this be the last we speak of this and have more fun with our own lists

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So moving on with the list shall we
I like the fact that we have this special rule but I'm not so sure about the wording...it's to complicated or something?
Why not just give this to all Clan formations to make it simple and why not use the "thick rear armor" rule instead of describing the same thing?
Right now a predator with an iron father is immune to crossfire or am I reading it wrong?

On the veteran sergeant:
I like the idea but not the form here also, will be back when I have something more to say but 25p for Leader is very good in an SM army.

Hopefully I will get some games in a week or two so I can check out how some of the new stuff work

Yeah the new wording I have just gives TRA and makes it explicit that it applies to INF only. After trails I think it should just dump any IS during assault and require venerable dread or space marine captain.

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OK, now I have been looking into the Veteran Officer stuff.

We are trying to achieve a couple of things to get the right IH feel. We want to symbolize the Iron Hands use of terminator armour among its sergeants, their use of bionics and their non-codex “Clan” structure. (Right?)

I think the use of “Leader” to symbolize bionics is a good thing. The current Special rule is a little too complicated in my opinion. So being able to have 2 leaders in a unit is a nice and simple solution. (Giving the Clans thick rear armour is another good solution)

I do not really like the idea of having both Morlocks and Veteran Officers as they stand right now. Initially these two units was the same thing, terminators among ordinary space marines. If we have both types then I think we should only be able to field the Morlocks as a personal guard to The Great Council Retinue or as an ordinary separate terminator unit or something like that…

My suggestions:
Replace the mandatory Commander in a Clan with Veteran Officers and make the Commander an upgrade once again.
Change the Veteran Officer to:
Veteran Officer CH n/a n/a n/a n/a Power Weapons (base contact) (Assault weapons), MW, EA+1 Leader, Reinforced Armour.
If we want to keep the Morlocks perhaps we should make a new Core formation:
0-1 Great Council Retinue Formations: Council + 2 Morlocks + 2 tacticals and 1-2 of the following (Dreads, Morlocks, tacticals…) The Council would be a supreme commander…?

What do you think?

/uven

I like the Morlcoks as a core formation and by making the Veteran Officer the default leaders in a clan would help balance their presence. Would we make them available as a standard CH upgrade but at 25?

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I would keep the Veterans as Clan only just to give them some edge against the heavy infantry.

So besides the Morlock/veteran stuff. What do we think needs tweaking before we start the long road to development status?

Suggestions:
1. A revisit to the special rules
2. The Mobile Fortress. (I actually made a LEGO fortress and played with it in a 3000p battle, it sucks... I know that 3000p is a little low to include this sucker but I just wanted to give it a try ) I really like the Fortress in theory but I think we will need to rethink some stuff. A fortress filled with marines is not the same as a WE with some IG in it...

/uven

Yeah every which way I look at some form of bionics I only come back to being able to remove BMs and/or TRA. Perhaps we should just give the Clan and Morlocks an extra BM removed automatically?

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jupp, and by giving them veterans with Leander and ceeping the commander upgrade we might catch two flies... ?

Ok machine brothers I've returned to the forge (back from hols) with a painted iron hands army and opponents lining up. what is the play testing target at the moment JZ? Is there a particular build you'd like tested or exploited?

Hey fellas how would with this go if it has the same ability as the land raider prometheus, in that it can co-ord an assault of multiple units from across the board. This might help represent the enhanced command abiliy?

its probably not as effective on this vehicle as its speed is reduced but it might go a minor way to increasing its capability? a step further would be to transfer the ability to any IH commander whilst the vehicle is functional and not broken. - this would be a significant command boost but representative of the supreme commanders using all the added comms gear, noosphere etc on board to co-ord the battle.

Another option might be to give the equivalent of the eldar ability to do a double retain.

I guess my point is can we look at a command boost to the force that contains one to offset it poor-average combat capability?

Really like the idea, right now you got more of a slow prison for the little marines than a commandcenter
Got any suggestions on the stats?

I managed my first game last night with the list but it wasn't particularly well planned or executed and resulted in a 3:0 loss in the third against the gargantuan big mob list.

Basically I had a very large clan, 2 dred phalanxes, heavy infantry + dread in thawk, whirlwinds, scouts and speeders. Too few activations and the stuff I garrisoned was pasted quickly by the gargants or Ork air power. I had hoped at one stage to kill the BTS with a combined attack from the clan and heavy infantry but rolled terrible and it was all over from there.

I'll go away now and think about it a bit more and probably look to take more air power or drop pods. Titans are tempting to.

As for the fortress, how about keeping stats as the are for now but allowing once a turn the IH player to retain without the -1 whilst the fortress is alive and unbroken? That is a fairly minimal ability boost for marines given they usually retain without too much drama, but would represent excellent command and control in coordinating multiple units at once?

Been trying to side step the Comand Center as I've been playing 1:1 games with myself trying to get the vibe of the list right. But since this is the topic dejour


This I like. Consider it added. Improved Coms is a fun feature.


I think that this should work more like the IF fortress, albeit one that is mobile. This means units in it can fire, FF, and gain fearless while embarked (as to avoid hackdowns, as you should when in a giant rolling fortress). The downside should be that it is slow and expensive so can be out maneuvered on the table.

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