Couldn't this just be represented by the librarian upgrade? Basically one tough sergeant with cool weapons adding an equivalent effect?

OK so to go back in time and discuss how we got here let's remember that the Veteran Officers was in fact the abstraction intended to represent all those termie Sargents running around. However there's an interesting point that perhaps the embedded terminators are better modeled differently. I totally agree with Orton that they shouldn't be a new unit but an upgrade CH added to the stands.

So we could try this approach:
Morklock Veterans:
INF 15cm
D 4+ CC 3+ FF 3+
Power Weapons (base contact) (Assault weapons), MW, EA+1
Storm Bolters (15cm) (small arms)
Assault Cannon 30cm AP+5/AT+5
Heavy Flamer 15cm AP4+, Ignore Cover

Reinforced Armour, Thick Rear Armour. Invulnerable Save, May drop pod.

Veteran Officer
CH
Power Weapons (base contact) (Assault weapons), MW, EA+1
Multi-melta 15cm MW5+
Leader

The upgrade would probably be 3 CH for 75, only applicable to Clans?

PS


Let us speak no more of that abomination

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Hey that could Work pretty well IMO. The leader would also help remove lots of BM like ork nobs thus helping create that feeling of the "unstoppable advance " of iron hands. Something you were trying to achieve with the flesh is weak rule.

Orton, it's like my brain's a tree and you're those little cookie elves

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Ha, I have no idea WTF your talking about but I'll take it as a compliment

As for the proposed Character, I'd loose the multimeter or at least tone it down as 25pts is cheap for all that. Maybe a combi weapon, 15cm AP 5+ / AT 5+, ok just small arms EA?

I think leader + MW CC is enough though for representing a single terminator sergeant.

This works for me too. I'd still consider adding the "special rule" Cannot be transported in Rhinos or Razorbacks. I don't mind an excuse for adding a Land Raider or two to the Clans.

thoughts?

Replaced Librarian with Vet Officer. Yes I know that IH don't lack psychers but it's more about the theme of the list. Agree with S2M comment about no Rhino transport for the INF stand they are stuck in with. Far weaker unit (really it allows better BM removal) so it's +25 vs the usual 50 for the others. Also gives a built in limitation about needing Land Raiders therefore balances out, at least in theory-hammer land.

(side note: The Space Puppies make a great proxy list for o.g. Iron Hands fluff as well)

Vet Officer aka Terminator renamed Morlock. Screw the new fluff, as IHs would use the Codex list now, I feel no compunction about leveraging that term for the unit.

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Hey I just read the new 40K fluff... What the hell? don't they read their own stuff? I now understand the ref to the IH being a codex force.

Back to the Vet Officer, I thought he might co-exist alongside the standard characters as perhaps a 0-2 or 0-3 upgrade per clan?

New list is looking good, you will need to tidy up the transport details on some of the vehicles as it still refers to Vets and/or tactical recon units.

Hmmm, looks good but...
Will need some time to look at the list but both Morlocks and veteran sergeants.
I like the idea of not having teleporting terminators but with the current build what is our reason? (fluff wise)

Perhaps making a special Clan called the Grand Council with some Morlocks in it instead...?

Nevermind will think some more.

Really like the Vet Officer. Good feel and a great way to symbolize "bionics" of "flesh is weak" by having Leader. Would be nice to be able to have several in a Clan but it might be to good?

Yeah that's a shit load of BM dropping as Leader is cumulative IIRC. If someone was so inclined to take 2 characters, each a single upgrade slot, then so be it, they're paying for it in other ways. Using a single upgrade slot at 1-3 vet officers, +25 points would require a price bump as it is horribly able to be abused. While we could resort to "may only be taken once" notes I tend to find that an indicator of bad list design often, SC's and other specials not withstanding.

The Morklocks, formerly Vet Officer, traded Teleport for Drop Pod. We're also trying to push for more of the integrated all-comers feel for the individual formations. After all, the reason the Avernii Morlocks were destroyed at the Dropsite was due to being separated and overwhelmed without support - Never Again is the cry

Now that being said, we could always try out a dedicated Morlock core formation and change the current embedded Morlock unit into a Terminator unit. Too good? Only testing would tell. Would have to be a 0-1 situation though.

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sounds good. will try this the next time my marinens goers into battle

It's hard to know which way to go on the terminators due to the conflicting "fluff" but for the sake of making the list distinguishable, I like the idea of the dispersed individuals with a small group retained as a body guard for the senior commanders.

As for the power of multiple leaders, I think it's still workable and offsets the other weaknesses in the list. Orks can do this well but have other initiative and equipment penalties to balance the effect. Do IH have enough shortfalls that the ability to clear multiple BM is not over the top?

I agree with Ortron on this. Removing independent Terminator formations allows for a lot of leeway in the other formations.

Have you considered Contemptor Dreadnoughts? The minis are easy to find (the old stompers sprue) and IH would have a nice reason to include them.

Regarding the Storm talon, I honestly would prefer it with the following stats:

Storm Talon, AV
35 cm, 4+, 6+, 4+
Twin linked Assault cannons 30 cm AP4+/AT4+
Skyhammer launcher 45 cm AP5+/AT5+/AA5+
Skimmer

Formations of 4 for 275 pts.

With the above stats, they fulfill admirably their battlefield role from a fluff standpoint, able to support assault admirably, and giving anti-air support.

They also fill a void in the SM army, the dedicated AA formation.

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I dont know anything about that supplement, but whats so bad about it?

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"War is not about who is right, but about who is left". - B. Russell

That's basically what a Venerable Dread is in EA for all intents and purposes stat-wise. The Contemptor being a relic pattern in comparision to the Mk4&5 patterns. Venerable as a term in 40k being more, "Verteran Super Mega Awesome" added to an existing Dred and isn't a pattern in and of itself. At the scale of EA, the differences smooth out.

I'm with you though and always model my old school models as being my Venerables

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