Nobody is stopping anybody from doing whatever the want, that said I think its pretty disrespectful to the new army champion tobe writing his attempts off and doing an alternative already.

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Just to be clear, Steve and crew: I am not intending this to be a thumb the nose at the AC situation. I intend it more of a "OK let's put the proverbial mouth meets money" deal and hopefully unmiring this discussion.

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I'm going to try Questor spam (and reverting the Daemonic Pact upgrade back to 25 points), probably thursday. Will post batrep after.

Just to say that my views on the LatD haven't changed, I haven't divided in here yet as I haven't looked at the list. Maybe next weekend.

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MikeT, any particular combos and opponents I can focus on / batrep for you here?

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He's a lawyer and a super-villian. That's like having a shark with a bazooka!

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The thing I'm most concerned about at the moment is the ability to have more than 1/3 war engines/titans so that would be the first thing to test. Other than that, making sure the cheaper Daemons and easier access to Greater Daemons don't unbalance the list; checking how spamming Daemonic pact Covens works.

A couple of points:

1. MikeT: If you want to make an experimental list, then I wish you all the best with it. I hope that you manage to get some games in, and that you can feedback to all those who are interested in creating an alternative list.

2. From my point of view, I remain completely against dividing the official list into two, making the kind of changes being proposed, especially those put forward by Lordotmilk, and remain utterly at a loss to understand why, every few months, we end up having to through this discussion of potentially overhauling this list.

Yes, there may well be some issues with the list, but this does not mean that it needs the kind of massive overhaul that some people want. Please can it just be left alone.

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This is not going to replace the current approved list.....

That list will remain as is from now on..... the new list(s) are to actually develop some kind of strong theme over and above 'everything chaos that isn't chaos marines'

I don't have a latd army, the current hodge-podge kitchen sink situation puts me right off..... but give me a chaos cult list or proper traitor guard and I'd be much more interested

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I hope that you're right when you say that it won't replace the current list, or, more to the point, become promoted as being the one that everyone should play instead of the existing list. I'd like reassurance from the AC on both these points.

As for the mish mash you referred to, you can easily theme your own list according to your own preferences from the current LatD army list, but if you don't like the idea of doing it that way, that's fair enough, I shall not quibble.

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hi,
I played a game today with this list against Minervan Tank Legion.

2995 points

Coven Slaneesh
1 Technical
Pact

Coven Slaneesh
1 Technical 25
Pact

Coven undivided
1 Technical 25
1 Arch Heretic
Pact

Coven Khorne
2 Technical
1 Pact
6 Land Transport
1 Icon Bearer

Subjugator Titan
Subjugator Titan
Questor Titan
Questor Titan
Hellfire Cannon
Hellfire Cannon
Lord of Battle
Demon Pool 10 Lesser Demon 1 Greater Demon

Minervans are a hard opponent against LotD. Lots of 4+RA armour.. and he knew how to roll the dices ;-)

He had 3 Tank Companies and one super heavy companie. So he was a little bit low on activations. (7) I had 2 questor and 1 Lord of Battle on the far left side, one coven on Garnison in left midfield, one coven and one hellfire formation on the blitz, next coven right of it, one hellfire in the middle on overwatch. On the far left side I had the mech. Coven and the two subjugator.
2 Leman Russ coy and the superheavies were in the middle, one stormtrooper formation on my left side and the salamander scouts and 1 Leman Russ coy on my right side.
I tried to destroy the smaller formations and out activate him to take the initiative on the battlefield. Sadly I had one of these days when your dices are against you. I had seriously troubles to activate my formations, win the strategy roll or do armour saves.
On his first 2 activations he breaks the to hellfire formations, to kill MW shoots. I went a little bit forward, hampered by 3 hold actions on 2 covens and one questor. I was'nt able to kill more the 1 Stormtrooper with a questor and a Lord of Battle within 45 cm with both WE.
Second turn saw some shooting and some destroyed Leman Russ and one destroy questor. Left Side was march moving with both subjugator and a mech Coy into assault range of his Leman Russ Coy.
3 Turn was bloody. I won the strategy roll, so the Aspiring Champion ordered his coven and the two subjugator to engage the Leman Russ, losing 1 mutant and 1 point of damage of one sujugator, killing all LR but the commisar.
One Leman Russ Coy tried to get the 2 objective in my half (31 cm to each other and 1 cm from the middle). I was able to kill 1 LR and the hydra to break the formation (he lost some LR from a Keeper of secrets MW range attack) with 2 covens. I had a chance to win at turn 3, but I rolled a 1 to activate the last questor for a march move to the blitz.

After the 3rd turn we had to quit the game. He lost one LR Formation, one was on half and broken, Stormstroopers were nearly destroyed and broken.
I lost 1 questor and both hellfire cannons were down to 1 unit and 1 was broken. The covens lost some units but not much.
The list can by a hard hitter with much lone fast WEs if you can activate them.. ;-) I suggest to limit the WE a little bit. I had 1500 points in WE. Maybe a 1/3 limit is better.
The technicals are cheap but I did not hit any plane.. So they are only there to lay blastmarkers here and there.
The free pact and the cheaper demons are good. I like that.

regards from Berlin,
Mathias

PS: I'm no native english speaker, so please don't look to much for failure.. ;-)

Battle report was perfect, thanks and I agree; I think the war engines are going to need to be limited somehow, with a 1/3 limitation being the most obvious.

Considering the Coven's themselves have got quite a few free upgrades (free pack, free lesser Daemon from the pact and free Greater Daemon summoning sacrifice) do you think they're now undercosted?

Ok, played catch up and hopefully everybody is playing nice now.

I like the initial proposals Mike, and would comment that the relaxing of the support choices from 1:1 to 1:2 do make a big difference to the list.

I would probably run with the following from first glance:

1 Coven
Land Transports
Technical
Icon Bearer
Daemonic Pact

2 Subjugator

3 Subjugator

4 Coven
Technical
Icon Bearer
Daemonic Pact

5 Subjugator

6 Subjugator

7 Coven
Technical
Daemonic Pact

8 Subjugator

9 Subjugator

10 Coven
Land Transports
Technical
Daemonic Pact

11 Doomwings

12 Doomwings

13 Zombies

Lesser Deamons x9



I like LoM idea on the Daemons formations, but fear that they would supress the use of Zombie formations and should perhaps be used in the traitor guard list instead.

The choice to restrict WE to 1/3 is probably the easiest to enforce, but it would be a further death nail in the coffin of the Altars. I'm tempted to say that Subjugators/Questors should be forced to be pairs and then the list should even out a bit.

Finally from my point of view, I would have liked the Hatred rule to have stayed in some form or other. I know it doesn't exist in 40k anymore, but I liked the effect on mixed LatD armies.

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I would say that the Covens are not undercosted. They are the poor cousins of the imperial gardists, so the costs are ok.. And for the meta game you need cheap activations.. as you have no artillery, no good aircraft exept Doomwings and Firelords (which need a extra coven) etc..

Maybe you could take the altar out of the 1/3 limit. Two pairs of questors are still a thing you don't want to see in every LotD list..

Picking up on Iron Duke's point about poor cousins of Imperial Guard I really think chaos coven and chaos guard should be different and have been told that the two Lost and the Dammed elements is probably going to be split. I would love to do a Blood Pact army with professional traitor guard but the current LatD is far to oriented the chaos cult and does not reflect the traitor chaos guard enough. But their is a time and a place for everything

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