If you want Undivided style Daemons, BL, take a look at the ones I have in the Night Lords list.

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I would gladly loose the AA on the Obliterators but then i have to rename them to Red Corsairs Obliterators which is daft
But instead a formation containing any Havocs could upgrade them to AA Havocs (AA Missile Launcher 30cm AP5+/AT6+/AA5+) for +25pts each (or perhabs 50pts each?).

The new Fiend type Dameon Engines fit better in an IronWarriors list.

I'm unsure to give the RC access to the full range of god specific daemons. How does the community feel about this?

And i will add Maulers. Same as Obliterators but FF and CC to-hit values switched, no shooting attack but +1MWEA in CC.

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Over 375 dowonloads and no comments yet? O.O

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The Red Corsairs came up in a discussion in the Emperor's Children thread, with Dave questioning whether 250 is overpriced for a Chaos Thunderhawk and me suggesting it is fair due to better cargos. I figured the discussion was better had here instead rather than cluttering up the EC thread.

I posted up a Red Corsairs battle report around a month ago. I've played Red Corsairs a few times before (against Evil and Chaos and Admiral Tee) and seen them used at a tournament.

There are various Red Corsairs formations that are deadlier than those in the SM list. Overall the list is balanced fine, but more expensive Thunderhawks compensate for the more deadly loads they can carry. Similarly the Landing Craft in the Black Templars list is more expensive than normal because more powerful formations can be deployed by it.

Good TH load-outs:

Red Corsairs CSMs with a cult upgrade can be a pretty powerful Thunderhawk load-out. Which of the Cults is best is situational. Looking at say 4 x CSM plus 4 x Khorne Berzerker (1 with the Chaos Lord) this hits on average with 5.3 normal hits and 0.83 MW hit. Compare that to a Tactical formation with Chaplain (that's costs the same 325) which gets 3 normal hits and 0.5MW and the CSM formation comes out 2.3 normal hits and 0.33 MW hit ahead. The CSM formation is 2 larger (more likely to outnumber) and half it's formation is fearless so difficult to shift if things go bad.

2 formations of 4 CSM Raptors, with Chaos Lords. They would score 5.3 hits and 1.3 MW attacks on average, all for a mere 350 points. They're decent at FF too if they have to, having FF4+

4 CSM Terminators with Chaos Lord - As killy as the good choice of SM Terminators plus a Chaplain in a TH, for 125 points less.

8 CSM Bikers – 8 is a better size to make use of the transport than SM bikers, plus they have the free Lord and are cheaper per unit.

Some of these formations can also be upgraded with Daemon Focus and a Chaos Champion, which, under the new Black Legion summoning rules, can be sacrificed to guarantee summoning a Greater Demon. You won't get to use it on the air assault turn but a 3DC WE in the area next turn (and beyond as Greater Demons now come with Daemonic Focus) boosts the effectiveness the formation can have.

Forgive me for speaking up, but having played with Red Corsairs for the last 4 months, against Space Marines, I've got a few counter points. Let's start off by pointing out that the SM TH is 200 points and has ATSKNF. The Red Corsairs TH is 250 points, with no ATSKNF and no changes besides that. Based purely on that information, it's strictly worse. Also keep in mind that, of course, ALL SM units have ATSKNF, which is why their unit sizes tend to be smaller.



You're neglecting to mention the fact that Chaplains are inspiring, and grant +1 in cr. That can be a huge swing, especially since in my experience, SMs make their saves. As such, paying 50 points for a Chaplain is far better than getting a free lord, who you hopefully picked the right flavor for - you HAVE to choose well before you know what you're getting into. As far as cult marines go, they're fearless. So what? That only matters if they live to lose the combat, and THEN they have to rally. If you're going to go there, why not also point out that if SMs break, they don't take hackdowns from being shot at because it takes two BM for every Marine?



How is this any different from taking two formations of four Assault Marines, apart from the firefight? Plus, who in their right minds would FF Raptors if you can CC? The same goes for Assault Marines. That's almost as bad as taking a Sorcerer Lord with the Raptors. I could almost understand your argument here if you said, say, one formation of eight Raptor Cult, at 315 points.



Last I checked, Terminators have Teleport. Why would I elect to put Terminators into a TH to start the game, only to have the possibility of them exploding into smithereens if someone hits/crits my TH? I'll teleport them in wherever I like without worrying about AA, with the possibility of a few blast markers in case some teleport into rocks. See my above argument about chaplains being worth their points.



Having not used bikes yet, I haven't got a good argument for or against this one. To be honest, I didn't even think you could take bikes in a TH.



This argument sounds more like it's about Daemons in general, rather than about the TH. Since the unit with demonic focus isn't considered the one activating in the assault, they get no demons. As far as the next turn, how is it any different than if a unit with Daemon Focus dropped in with Drop Pods? Then there would be a 3DC WE running around THE VERY SAME TURN. OH NO.

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I'm sorry but the chances of a thawk being shot down if you're sensible are WAY less than something going wrong with the terminators teleporting in..... picking up a handful of blastmarkers, losing the strategy roll off and being engaged in a FF or shot to pieces..... teleporters are also *way* less effective against anyone with scouts, or skimmer transports screening their troops forcing FF as they don't have a WE to barge them out of the way, then after the assault, the terminators can hug the thawk for cover rather than be stuck in the open.....

I repeat the immortal words spoken to me at a tournament earlier this year by the current UK epic champion... "unless your opponent has nightwings, put the terminators in a thunderhawk"

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Agreed kyussinchains (and dptdexys)

One of the major disadvantages of teleporting is that it occurs at the start of the turn, quite apart from the other issues presented by kyussinchains. Planet-falling or simply flying in can occur at any point during the turn, and both give the player far more control over when and where the Termies will deploy.

Also, given that you intend to adopt any of these strategies, you should build the rest of the army to support the strategy - for example having the means to reduce the opposing AA capabilities, or the mobility to move where they can support the Termies in their forward position.

How did you know it was me ??

uh-oh, Steve isn't going to be pleased...... he was the one dispensing the sage-like advice (advice that allowed me to defeat his eldar three times on the trot )

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A few of us in our gaming group feel that Terminators cost enough on their own, without having to put them into a thawk. That's a lot of points to invest in a single formation. They're also not an automatic choice. I spent a lot of my time over the past year playing with a guy whose middle name has to be "Boxcars", so even caution and sensibility when flying in can't prevent a lucky shot, and a couple bad saves.

Personally, since I'm running Red Corsairs, I like my Terminator retinues to have a little more punch to them, and go with the max of 6, occasionally popping in an Obliterator or two to provide much needed AA. So even at that, the formation is too big to stick in a thawk anyways, especially due to the fact that they take up two slots per Terminator.

The problem I have with planetfall and Terminators is that you have to plot it before the game, and if you miss, more often than not you're missing big. And then you're stuck with your Terminators derdling around on the wrong side of the board, waiting for the next turn to be picked back up by the thawk, hoping for the turn after that to do something useful. Or send them running across the board, trying to get in range of any objectives or enemy models.

As far as cover is concerned, hugging a thawk is just as good as ducking into the woods, or ruins, or a building. Having your cover come in with you is nice, I'll grant you that, but it also goes away at the end of the turn, and then you're left with them hanging out in the open, and god forbid you lose that strategy roll, you know?

If you're smart about teleporting in, the Terminators can generally take care of themselves. They've come in under cover, not completely surrounded by enemies, and hopefully have support fire nearby. I generally 'port in the same turn I've declared my drop. There's always the chance you're going to lose the strategy roll, it's something you just have to be used to. Hopefully you've accounted for that possibility when you teleport in, as I do now when I play (the majority of the time. I'm still learning, so from time to time I make mistakes, and then I learn from them.)

As far as scouts and skimmer transports are concerned, you're going to run into those same issues when you're assaulting from the thawk. About the only plus I can see is that you can probably barge some of them out of the way. But you're still stuck assaulting scouts and/or skimmers, and probably whatever they're shielding. So the odds are that they're going to be very spread out, and you're going to be in ff with some of them anyways.

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Depending on how you play the scout rule (and this opens a huge can of worms every time) you can bypass a scout screen with a thawk as long as you land in both zones of control....the skimmer thing is totally voided in most cases as you can barge them out of the way and deliver the terminators to btb the troops inside the castle

Also the thawk is a separate formation, it doesn't increase the cost of the terminators one bit....and thawks are awesome in so many ways......

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Don't get me wrong, I LOVE Thawks! I run a pair of them (I'll have to start a painting thread at some point) more often than not. It's just that my favorite flavour filling is Raptors, especially with more cowbell (because Blue Raptor Cult sounds like Blue Oyster Cult ). It's also nice that they have more wiggle room than other formations when getting out of the thawk.

Scouts are super tricky, I'll give you that. You do have to be super careful about who you're closest to in the assault, because that'll change which models you can charge, which gets frustrating.

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if it works for you, fair enough

I don't play CSM (yet.... emp's children on the paint stand currently though) so the list synergy will be different, but I do play marines a lot, and I've just found terminators to be far more useful when flown in (and occasionally shot down...) than teleported.... I've killed teleporting chaos termies by FF-ing them with guard infantry companies, and in other cases completely avoided teleporters by simply moving out of engage range after winning the strategy roll.... I've had my own terminators eaten by daemons after teleporting and subsequently losing the SR..... I'd say losing the SR is more likely to happen than a thawk being shot down by a single hydra/hunter/flakkwagon etc...

flying them in removes those risks, flak aside, you can hold them until the end of the turn with no risk, teleporting formations either have to activate first or risk being attacked unfavourably, or simply avoided.... with some very unfortunate luck, teleporting chaos terminators may come in with a couple of blast markers and start the turn close to breaking (if you've never rolled a couple of 1's for blast markers you're a luckier person than me!)

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I really Must be missing something obvious, but does this list, as written, allow any chaos lord to be upgraded to Warlord with supreme commander for free?

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The PDF doesn't inklude the "How to build an army list" section. It's the same as for the Black Legion. So a Warlord ist an Uppgrade for a Chaos Lord for +50pts. Hmm I guess i should include that in the upgrades.

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