My feeling is that if it fits the pattern, why shouldn't we use the established AdMech conventions? I'm not understanding your objection here. IG tends to throw company onto a lot of variously sized detachments but I don't see that as having any bearing on how AdMech names things.



Ah, I see what you are saying. Yes, this is by design. Facing all war engine armies is tough and I'd like to tone that down a bit with the core choices being AV. That way you have to take some AV to unlock the Superheavy tanks.

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-Vaaish

I do not really understand why this list exists, especially seperate to the skitarii list. Its a bizarrely restrictive and also, bizarrely specialised minervan list, that can also take specialised titan loadouts and an imperator?
is your intent to also allow the "any titan, almost any upgrade" option in the regular skitarii list too? cause the imperator is overpowered and undercosted as it is, giving it access to cheap activations and objective grabbers is madness

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The list exists because the skitarii list used to include the Leman Russ and Superheavy tanks. Lots of folks painted up these models as AdMech and can't currently use these models with AdMech lists. It was determined quite a while back that folks wanted an AdMech list in this style. I've even mentioned my intention to pursue such a list after the Skitarii list was stable in my road map thread and I believe several others. The idea for a list like this has been floating around for at least two years now.



Now, I'd love to have constructive input on improving the list if you are willing to explain yourself. Other than finding out you like the word "bizarre" you aren't really explaining how or why you dislike these things.

1. Please explain what you mean by bizarrely restrivtive.

2. Please explain what you mean by bizarrely specialized minervan list.



It's highly improbable that an Imperator will show up, but yes, it could be selected IF you are playing at 4k or higher points. Second all skitarii lists have access to titan allies using the War Griffons list that allows for specialized titan loadouts. Third, I'd recommend that you at least read the list you are bashing before posting; customized titan load outs has been part of the Skitarii list since it's inception. Finally, I would hardly call a minimum 450 point formation a "cheap" activation. It would be far more cost effective to use the AMTL list and load up on sentinels and a cheap reaver!

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-Vaaish

oh dear

i'll try this again.

bizarre restrictions and specialisations: its a leman russ based army that can only take vanquishers and executioners?
valdors in formations of 5

it's essentially a "normal lists only allow a couple of these tanks, so lets make a list that is made up of loads of them, and only them! THEME!!!*" list
and for some reason, the "lets take rare and specialised tanks" philosophy is not carried over into the superheavy selection, where instead you get the default choices.

its a list with all the specialist tanks, and none of the normal tanks. bizarre restrictions and specialisations should be pretty obvious as to what i referred. I find it hard to believe you are unaware of the parallels between this list and the minervans would be, or are unable to see the ways in which this list provides a more restrictive and specialised slice of that list. Both are "tank based" but your list includes a massively smaller number of options, both in units and in formation layouts, and a wealth of more access to the specialised troops. Both these things, in a normal list building format, would be considered unusual and/or bizarre.

I asked if you were intending to allow the titan un-restrictions in the infantry skitarii list.
Firstly, I did not as "are you intending to add them to the list" i asked are you intending to allow them to the list. One implies that they are not already a thing, the other, is simply asking for future intent.
Secondly, and more importantly, the current list allows for "customising titans" but only in that it allows weapon options, but not upgrade options (leader, CMLs) and it certianly but does not allow for emperor titans to be included. Given i then went on to specifically talk about the aspect of the rules not currently allowed, perhaps you could do me the courtesy of not assuming i am an idiot.
likewise, when i talk about adding the imperator to cheap activations, I was still, infact, referring to the Infantry Skitarii list, where the base price for a formation is not 450 points, but 275. you can tell, because it was within the same paragraph break as i specifically ask abotu the infantry list.

the imperator may not show up in 3000 point games, sure, but lists are supposed to be built to be balanced up to 5000 point games. many people play 4k games, at which point an imperator could easily show up. Especially given that it's an excellent option in the list it belongs to, despite being hampered by low activation count, lack of access to cheap troops to contest and grab objectives, and a general lack of ability to target larger quantities of enemy formations. all of which are resolved by the skitarii infantry list. they are also, I believe, resolved, though to a lesser extent, in the approved Demi-list above.

I don't see what this list adds to the game that could not be better served by simply modifying the Infantry list to have options for Russ and Superheavies. The Minervan list adds options not available to the Steel Legion, by providing variety at the cost of restricted access to infantry. this list appears to act as a place to put the three formations not currently in the infantry list, while still allowing you to cherry pick the best aspects of the sister lists.
If the problem is that people have AdMech painted Russ and Superheavies, and want an army to use them in, well, they're in luck. it exists already, and they can even use other russ types they may have also painted red in the process!

(*THEME should be yelled as though an angry shirtless man yelling sparta)

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~Every Tool Is A Weapon, If You Hold It Right~

Good to see this list Your general idea and included units mostly looks good. I disagree with Jagged, in the past IG used to have entore formations of Vanquishers but they're hard to make and some FW's that made them were destroyed so they've become rare with IG. An AM tank army would be composed of rare types though - the AM are known to keep and use the best tanks for themselves.

Various comments:

Macharius should not be in the list!!!

Adeptus Mechanicus are all about using older/rarer higher technology tanks in their armies compared to guard. The background for Machariuses is that Forge World Lucius was getting over stretched by orders for superheavies and had lost the technology to produce Baneblades. Their tech priests searched and found ancient records they pieced together to make the Macharius, a replacement 'second generation Baneblade' though it took 200 years for Mars to approve the design so it could be built and ironically by that time other Tech Priests had begun production of a Lucius pattern Baneblade that was much lower tech than the true Martian Baneblade, but still a better option. Due to high demand they ended up building both however (the first Macharius production is 852.M41 or around 150 years from the end of the 40k timeline, insignifigantly new in terms of an empire around for 10,000 years). Machariuses are quicker to produce, but are clunky and low-tech. The background is definite that other Forge Worlds like Mars, Ryza, ect which build true Baneblades don't ever build Machariuses and so wouldn't ever have them in their armies. It is known that the AM jealously guard and hoard the best technology for themselves and their armies – if Lucius is building both Lucius pattern Baneblades and Machariuses it is surely likely that they would choose to equip their armies with the better Lucius Baneblades while shipping the Machariuses out for Guard regiments. Yes, I gather some random Black Library novel had some AM with Machariuses, probably because it was a new tank release at the time and the author hadn't bothered to read the background properly, but BL novels do wacky inapropriate things at times and shouldn't be given too much weight, the core background for the unit is more important. If very occasionally a small sub-set of Forge Worlds field Machariuses with their armies out of desperation this shouldn't be represented in the core list, which should represent a typical AM Catapracti list.

Please allow the core Russ formation to be made up of Leman Russ Executioners or Vanquishers not just as an upgrade! They're another of the few tanks we know the AM use in their armies, most especially the plasma specialists of Forge World Ryza in very large numbers. As per the FW background which says “the Forge World of Ryza, whose own tech guard regiments are almost exclusively equipped with Executioners.” In an ideal world we might have variant lists for each Forge World, but assuming that isn't going to happen then the core AM lists should be able to cater for any of the main Forge Worlds. The Epic-UK tank list allows for tank armies of LR Executioners so it's not anything unbalanced.


Huh? I think you're confusing them with Malcadors. Besides the AM are obsesive about old technology and keeping it alive – knowledge and technology is their religion and way of life. They have a lot of ancient technology in their armies, it's their thing.

Valdors should definitely be in the list, they're one of the very few tanks specifically stated to be used by the AM. To quote Forge World, they say the “Valdor Tank Hunter, an ancient design based on the Malcador chassis, it is built round a powerful neutron laser weapon able to make a mockery of the strongest armoured defence. Although more common in the forces of the Adeptus Mechanicus, the arcane technology used in their construction makes these tanks revered relics within Imperial Guard armoured companies.”

Should Valdors and Vanquishers be priced the same? I doubt I'd ever choose to take Vanquishers over Valdors. Ok, they don't have Heavy Bolters but Valdors have a 60cm Disrupt MW3+ main gun and 15cm move so can garrison and start on overwatch.

Why not use the Praetor Armoured Assault Launcher for AA in the list?
The 40k model can select a few different types of missiles but the AA ones would be most appropriate for epic. The list could then have a 2DC high-tech superheavy rather than the boring option of just having to use a Hydra like the IG list. Some of us have good proxies for this unit too, but others could just proxy some kind of superheavy with AA easily enough.



Apart from AA and transport the Net-EA lists upgrades are mostly overcosted and hardly ever taken so shouldn't be followed too much. It's nearly always better to have more activations. Epic-UK have tried to do something about this by reducing the cost of upgrades compared to our IG and other lists e.g. 50 points for 3 add-on Griffons compared to 75 in the Net-EA.

If you're going to have the option to attach a Superheavy to a tank formation it should be cheaper not 200 points (part of the 200 pays for the separate activation). Cost it 175.

Perhaps consider having termites, moles and hellebores in the list? Perhaps these might be better saved for the Ordo Reductor siege list but we know AM use tunnellers.

OT: but I don't understand or agree with the assertion Imperators doesn't fit in 3k lists, that's not the case, at least not for the core TL list. Remember an Imperator counts as having a Corvus Assault Pod due to it's transport abilities so allows one cheap 100 point 01- per corvus Skitiarii formation to be taken (the Warmonger goes further allowing this plus a 75 point flyer) and 1350 for two formations is a lot, but it takes care of your TK and potentially the AA for the army with it's 90cm AA 4+ TKD3. It's possible to use the rest of the points to get a decent number of activations then. I don't think the Imperator is overcosted at all, it seems about right to me. I believe you complained previously Jagged because you fired most of a 5k tank army at it and it killed a lot before it died but the tactical error was trying to kill it rather than sticking one blast marker on it and ignoring and hiding from it while taking out other formations to reduce his activations.

Glyn - Yes i was confusing Malcs with Valdors.

As to the Macharius, we have specific comfirmation of it's use by the AM in the novel Titanicus. Yes its silly, but there you go.

Praetors would be fun to have, though not neccessarily in place of Hydras. Not sure how I'd include them; DC2 AA would be tough to make fit right.

Finally, as to upgrade costs i mostly agree on the SHT side, but given the costing I suggested for Executioners was 50 pt lower than the original I stand by it.

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SG

Ghost's Paint Blog, where everything goes that isn't something else.

NB: I am not up to date on current FW fluff or fluff from recent BL publications, so the following might be just plain wrong, correct/ignore as deemed relevant

I think more variation in the core Russ formation would be good, but still kept to the 'rare' variants. My reasoning here is that most of the rare variants, such as the vanq, when fielded in any large numbers would be very specific to a small number of forge worlds. Likewise the executioner as a current upgrade is not built by any forgeworld that also builds vanqs. Could both the core formation and the upgrade allow for some flexibility in russ type here, so that a greater range of forge worlds fit the list (and again, keep to a small number of rare variants, i'm not advocating full minervan range).

This would allow people to easily make themes Ryza, Gryphonne, Stygies etc builds from the cataphractii list.

I like Glyn's suggestion of getting tunnelers into an AM list, not sure they fit here though.

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AFK with real life, still checking PMs

Additional idea: some sort of research/repair tech cult vehicle 'character' upgrade?

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AFK with real life, still checking PMs

Additional, additional idea:

On the macharius front, could the unit be made more generic? I seem to remember from some fluff that very few baneblades in use in 40k are 'true' old, REAL baneblades that work to full spec. Many are later attempt to match technology the full understanding of which is lost. Therefore, could you have some sort of a 'true' SHT' formation, and a formation of 'lesser' such vehicles – attempts to match the first, but not quite there. Macharius would be one such example, but across the many forge worlds there may be many SHTs that look like a BB but don't quack like a BB.

This is not a level of detail that can be gone into in most guard lists, but is in the fluff (or was?), and this might be the list to highlight the extent of the decay of tech.

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For reference, I've attached my old Armoured Division list.

It tried to do something a bit different than "Minervans with less tank options but more titan options"...

- Featured the 2DC heavy tanks that aren't currently in any/many lists in some cases (we worked out stats which I can also post if interesting).
- Had a large, unarmed, landing craft that can carry tanks (again, we worked out some provisional stats).
- Had access to more Titan configs than most lists, but less than the full AMTL list (because that'd be overpowered in some cases, and because Emperors should be restricted to just the AMTL).
- It had no Ordinati, but some could be put in I think.
- Had a more open army selection than the IG-esque core/support setup, but obviously far fewer total choices.
- It had SHT's, but only really as an excuse to have an Imperial Decimator. Perhaps the SHT co. could be reduced to just Decimators.

The idea was to have a list that didn't just have different units, but also played differently to the other tank lists out there (Minervans, Ulani).

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Oi... it's been a busy day here I see.

On Praetors etc. I'm not opposed to them, but they just didn't seem like an AdMech unit to me and there are a lot of units we'd need to proxy anyway (this seems rather futile in the light of no support from GW). I don't know about adding in AA versions but the Heavy artillery Ben had in the armored list seems interesting.



Ok I see where you are coming from. Can we put this on hold until after the list itself gets hashed out? Aside: the robots field 4 robots and a techpriest controller per maniple. The techpriest is off the table controlling so you only have 4 units.

Glyn:
Regardless of intent we do KNOW Admech use or operate with the Macharius. I don't see the unit being pulled from the list.



Would you drop the points for the tank cohort upgrade too? Make it 150-175 for both them and the superheavy?



Titan list can pull in two in a 3k game if they like. I was referencing the Skitarii and this list which is what I thought he was talking about. I seem to have been mistaken on that count.


They are best suited for ordo reductor. This list is supposed to be focused on the AdMech armored brigades and I don't think either really suite the feel here. I've got an unpainted Hellbore that's been on my shelf for a couple of years and I'd love to put it to use but I don't think this is it.


Apoc:


Ok, here's where we run into issues. I originally put the executioners in as an option for the Tank Maniple which gave some nice variety... all the way up until I realized that the Valdor seriously overlapped the executioner with MW and a Lascannon. If I leave the Executioner as an option for the core, I don't see the valdor being taken since it's slower. There's some utility in the slightly better to hit and disrupt but I don't see that as enough of a draw.

Obviously I don't want to drop the Executioner from the list so the best place was in the core upgrades to boost the size of a russ formation and give you some MW in it.




This might be a good place to hash out Glyn's blessings of the Omnissiah rule.




Any real reason for decimators then? I thought these were mostly a chaos construct and it seemed odd in a quasi-imperial list.

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-Vaaish

Fair enough


Funny as I'd see units we never had official support with from GW as being easier to proxy than anything else. After all, we're not matching an aesthetic of a released 6mm model. Technically I think it's bonkers and ultimately self defeating to even bring model availability into ANY list discussion anymore. Anything plentiful at the current time is only going to get rarer and using that as any factor in design is going to not pan out in the long run, mate.


Much agreed. That's the place to go wild with such things. Can we hurry up and get to that next? Been waiting for years for them and the Legio Cybernetica!


Valdor's can garrison. I'd take as many of those I could afford if expecting heavies. They have a very good place in the list.


Text of that?


Nope. They're legion precursors/cousins of the same technology used to build baneblades but "better". Should they be in or not? [shrugs] They are not a "chaos" thing in any way however. They were pretty toys taken away from the Legions post heresy and at this point the only place they'd be found in the Imperium would be the Ad Mech. In all likelihood they've been reimagined as the Glaive and Fellblade tanks (retconing Decimator as a general term for the those). Also see Sicaran Battle tank.

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You are more than welcome to try to convince me of a good reason to put them in though. What I have in the first post is a starting place, we'll see where it takes us.



It's a good point for putting the executioners back into the Russ maniple, but would anyone else bother using Valdors? Right now it would be a 450 point investment in a garrison unit that might not do a whole lot versus a somewhat faster unit that could more easily re-position with similar firepower.

here's the link to the thread. The rule never progressed much further than spitballing since it was originally aimed for use with the Skitarii. I think it would fit much better here.

viewtopic.php?f=22&t=23703



I don't mind adding them to the list, but I'd rather we not take out the existing superheavies for them since part of the purpose here is the have a list for all those adMech superheavies that got ripped out of the skitarii list.

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-Vaaish

Regarding the list:

1) Tank Companies
1a)
I'd like to see possible Executioner formations. They don't have the range of the Valdor, and I'd see myself using them very differently. As an example: I tend to take a trio of Crusaders in my Knights list, not so much for their actual killing power (although that first turn salvo can always bring a tear to my eye if someone's not hugging cover), but for their ability to lock down fire lanes and draw fire for what people think they can do. If I can force an opponent to redeploy or wrap wide of an objective because I've got a perceived nasty threat sitting there, it can still be worth the points invested.

1b)
I'd also like to see all-Conqueror tank formations as an option too (for those of us who want to go Gryphonne). I realize that a 5+/5+ cannon and a lascannon on a 30cm move tank isn't terribly popular with folks, but it's (hopefully) a less contentious AV than the Macharius, and offers a different core tank formation, and an alternative to the Executioners and Vanquishers too.

I do realize they also run into use conflicts with Chimedons, but if I'm taking an AMTL list, I'd love to have a few squadrons of Conquerors nipping at my god machines' heels ready to leap out and generate a crossfire on demand.

3) Re: superheavies.

I like seeing Stormblades, Shadowswords, and Baneblades as options, at least because in the case of the latter two it allows people to use SHTs they have in their collections, and in the case of the former, it's both characterful (Ryza), and relatively easy to convert off of Shadowswords (got any spare SM plasma pistols?).

On that note, would it be worth trying to include one of the other NON-TRANSPORT GW whacky SHT versions? The quake cannon one comes to mind, for many of the same reasons I'd be interested in taking Valdors (possible killing potential, perceived threat through range and OMG BIG DAMAGE ATTACK). That said, there aren't many variants that aren't also troop transports, which narrows the options somewhat. Still, it offers alternative "esoteric not-quite-ordinatus AdMech SHT" options.

4) Praetors as a heavy artillery option sounds good, and/or possibly opening up Crassus to the Skitarii. Of course, depending upon how closely you want to hew to the FW lore, the Admech generally don't like those tanks for their relative newness, though the relevant forge worlds fabricating the vehicles are more than happy to hand them to the IG.

Considering the ongoing discussion on AA and suppression in another thread, adding dedicated DC 2 AA SHTs to armor formations would probably generate more conflicts than they might be worth. I wish the IG had an AA alternative to Hydras and dedicated Manticores, but meh. On that note... what about a dedicated Manticore? It would function the same as a Praetor, but it would be a chimera hull AV and therefore significantly easier to kill. Of course, the discussion of "These Manticores are artillery tanks, and THESE Manticores (including this one attached to the artillery company) are AA tanks..." yeah, ok, bad idea Armiger. Still, I might as well leave it in to see what people say.

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