ortron wrote:
As usual, I'll now offer up some comments to the Iron Hand's brains trust
That's our new name, folks! Time for tee shirts!
ortron wrote:
1. List format
Now that clans and detachments are essentially the same thing, may I suggest you combine them into "Iron Hands Detachments" rather than have two groups in the army list. Then just use "1+" and "0-1" modifiers, that you already have, to ensure the standard clan is taken at least once and the mobile fortress is a one off.
I left this in this way for an actual reason as I wanted to have a conversation regarding them in the future. Looks like that is now so I now bring forth to the brain trust to render judgement the following:
This has to do with fundamental list direction which will affect everything to come to hence the need to converse about the core theme of the list structure.So
1. we can collapse everything together and call it good. This has the need then for us to rethink upgrades and other limitations to the list as at that point we're approaching Codex++ list.
2. The other option, which I am personally inclined to is to:
a. You can take X detachments per Clan taken
OR
b. You cannot take more detachments than Clans (this works somewhat then like Space Wolves, the other seriously non-codex list out there)
Doing that also puts the Clan structure front and center and with Dred Phalanx in there, stresses the Preds and Dreds theme.
Thoughts?
ortron wrote:
Dread detachment - Yay!!!
Yeah same here. I finally have a reason to paint up the 16 Contemptor Dreadnoughts in my collection!
ortron wrote:
I think the standard assault marines could live in the clans/detachments list. After all the iron hands have no issues with getting in your face and beating you to a pulp. Their ability to air assault will still be limited though through the limitation on flyers. Assault units backed up by vindicators or dreadnoughts (especially an iron clad or siege dread) fits well into my image of Iron Hands but I guess that's my 2c.
Agreed. It will also further distance them from the Salamanders list which is very suitable for Iron Hands. Dobbsy and I had brought that up in the past. Going once, twice...??
ortron wrote:
Personally I'd stick with standard options of Warlord, Reaver, 1-2 warhounds.
uvenlord wrote:
If we revert to ordinary titans we might want to find another way of showing their special bond with the mechanicum... no idea how just now though...
As much as I hate that I hav to agree that I jsut can't quite come up with something a little unique in this area to show off the Titan affinty; It just doesn't really fit into the EA mechanics that well. Hell, anything other than Warhounds isn't usually worth the points for Marines IMO. Perhaps some sort of options are opened up with the presence of Titan battle groups? Meh, probably over thinking it...
ortron wrote:
3. Upgrades
Scout formation has "sniper" but option isn't listed in the "upgrades" list.
"Recon Squad" exists in "upgrades" list but no clan/det can take it (don't think its required as IH aren't known for big scout elements as each clan takes care of its own recruitment, meaning the are unlikely to have more than 10-20 at any one time. (perhaps recon det could be 0-1 per clan?)
Simple error on my part. Will correct the rows.
ortron wrote:
5. Units
"Great Council Retinue" (GCR) - no technical problem with this as it stands, just an alternative option:
Given you already have the venerable dread and veteran officers units, why not just make the GCR a supreme commander character upgrade like normal marine lists - thus conferring the "Supreme Commander" skill to either unit. To further explain, the current GCR is almost identical to the vets, but if you removed their "Thick Rear Armour" and gave them "Invulnerable Save" to represent the bionics, then there is no need for an additional unit (that's almost identical to the vets). Given we were talking of ditching the Bionics rule this might be a way of keeping the theme of veterans being heavily augmented without the need of further special rules.
So basically add a specific upgrade to Venerable Dread and Veteran Officiers allowing yet another upgrade? Hard to organize that but does have some nice aspects.
ortron wrote:
And lastly (I go on don't I?).. What about the bombard, and thudd guns/graviton guns? These sounded pretty cool and seem more Iron Hand(ish?) than Storm Talons and THawk bombers, although I understand you put these in there due to the lack of navy support.
the new units I'm holding off until the above gets hacked out. Then let's pivot to discuss those goodies!
ortron wrote:
I think ditch the bomber & talon, you've got the base thunderhawk and hunters for AA.
Base Thunderbrick is complete poo-poo for CAP. The Interdictor model might be more approriate and further distances ourselves from the Air Drop playstyle (which I am good with). Anyone up for a complete swap (not addition)? Well baked and works well in other lists such as Black Templars which don't take Naval assets either and is well tested. Stats for reference
Thunderhawk Interdictor AC/WE Bomber 4+
Turbo Laser 45cm 2x AP5+/AT3+, FxF
2x Twin Heavy Bolter 30cm AP4+/AA5+, FxF
Twin Heavy Bolter 15cm AP4+/AA5+, Left
Twin Heavy Bolter 15cm AP4+/AA5+, Right
2x Rockets 30cm AT4+, FxF
Twice the AA shots and some good ground support for only +50points (we call that a good deal mathematically)
ortron wrote:
Then bring in some infantry support weapons (which can drop pod) and/or the bombards.
Thinking of that exact thing for the Rapiers.
ortron wrote:
If your really keen for more aircraft the storm eagle or caestus seems more in line with Iron Hand way of war.
uvenlord wrote:
Why not go for the usual airplanes? isn't they part of the mechanicum (sort of anyway)
Now that the storm eagle has been kicked back to Fighter-Bomber it might make more sense in that role. The local meta has really gone air-heavy here to the point that they tend to get maxed out and then everything else is purchased (as the classic no-brainer) hence my balancing acts between fluff and still being competitive. Around Seattle, no air power == dead army it seems now. Actually the Mechanicum relies on Avengers only and shies away from air power generally (and only taken at Vaaish's reluctance IIRC). There's a huge crap-storm starting to brew over AdMech and the Avenger right now that I am loath to enter but it might sidestep our concerns for now. Extrapolating a specific Ad Mech Allies section could be where air power could be reintroduced and leave the Storm Talon in the dust. <- this requires more brain fuel to cogitate on...
edit: personal opinion, BT List Style Airpower > Current Ad Mech List Style