I'd thought of the Avenger more as ground attack than fighter, but if it's given some offensive AA then the Thunderbolt wouldn't be needed.

Are there existing Epic stats for the Avenger? Check the Sisters of Battle lists, as by 40k it's particularly associated with them too (in this case flown by IN but they especially request it as they consider it lucky/holy or somesuch).

It's not the direction I'd take the list but I can see the idea and fair enough.

I don't know yet. I've not moved that far into figuring on the Avenger. I should clarify a bit, there will be an armored company Cataphractii list for the skitarii. That WILL have some of the less unique bits like superheavies, russes, valdors and the like. It's just the "core" skitarii list I'm trying to keep closely focused on AdMech stuff.

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-Vaaish

Further thought on the avenger. The Sisters of Battle list does have a version. It's mostly what I was thinking although the lascannons are inexplicably 30cm instead of 45 like those found on the Marauder:

Avenger Strike Fighter
Type: AC: Fighter Bomber
Armor: 6+
CC: -
FF: -
2x Lascannon Fixed Forward Arc 45cm AT5+/AA5+
Avenger Bolt Cannon Fixed Forward Arc 30cm 2xAP5+/AT5+
Heavy Stubber Rear Arc AA6+

the squadron size is two units for 150 points. I have a few comments on this though. The craft does have two points of front armor better than the Thunderbolt which initially made me consider the armor to be 5+ to set it between the thunderbolt and marauder for durability. I don't know if that's quite enough to warrant a drop of one point in armor though. Second, on the avenger bolt cannon. I'd thought that it would have shorter range (30cm) and half as many shots with the same stats as the Vulcan Megabolter(AP3+/AT5+. The sisters of battle version seems to just set it to 5 across the board with two shots.

With my initial idea for stats I'd looked at making the detachment of two aircraft around 175-200 points.

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-Vaaish

It's normal and desirable for an aircraft weapons ranges to be reduced - the Lascannons on the Lightning Fighter in the Elysian list are 30cm while the Reaper Autocannons are 15cm range on the Chaos aircraft (rather than 30cm for ground Reaper Autocannon) or some Heavy Bolters on the Thunderhawk are 15cm. There have been raging arguments over any fighters having 45cm range AA in the past and the conclusion was that it was abusive and should be 30cm. Your Avenger's Lascannons need to be reduced to 30cm.

On the other hand the Avenger's Bolt Cannon is basically half a Titan VMB in the rules and how it looks and it should be 30cm AP3+/AT5+. I'll cross-post this in the Sisters thread.

I don't really care if it has 6+ or 5+ armour but if we could please have agree one profile for both lists that would definitely be ideal.

Out of curiosity then, why is the marauder 45cm with the lascannons? It seems suspect that a lascannon gives you identical aa stats to a multilayer.

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-Vaaish

The issue is to do with the way that air-power rapidly becomes abusive with increases in range and firepower since there are limited units that can deal with it.

Marauder is a bomber and a single, somewhat fragile unit. The lascannon can be used for AA, but only in defence, and 45cm is a 'reasonable' range for ground attacks by Bombers. However units that are Fighter Bombers can also use their AA to attack other aircraft, and here the 45cm range AA becomes abusive because it reaches out past all other aircraft AA (except one . . .)
45cm ground attacks are similarly abusive because it allows the a/c much more latitude in avoiding ground-based AA, so it could be argued that the Avenger Lascannon should be reduced to 30cm all round.

Ideally the Marauder (and Helltalon) should have a separate statline restricting the AA to 30cm, which complies with all the other stat lines in all other lists keeping the game balanced. Sadly the Marauder is highly unlikely to be changed, though that has very little impact because it is a bomber. However the Helltalon really needs to be changed to avoid the continued references to the precedence that it sets - (although this thread had not got that far - - - yet )

So, to remain 'balanced' with respect to other aircraft, the Avenger stats probably ought to read

Avenger Strike Fighter

Type: AC: Fighter Bomber
Armor: 6+
CC: -
FF: -
2x Lascannon - Fixed forward arc - 45cm 30cm AT5+
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 30cm AA5+
Avenger Bolt Cannon Fixed Forward Arc 30cm 2xAP5+/AT5+
Heavy Stubber Rear Arc - 15cm AA6+

Also, two a/c for 150 points is far too cheap given that the two a/c can produce 2x AT hits or equivalent, twice that of a flight of TBolts, and with slightly better AA as well. The issue being that this allows 6x cheap, and very effective formations in the standard 3k 'tournament' game that can use their 45cm range to stand off from most ground based AA taking pot shots at any vehicle.

I strongly suggest starting at 275 for the formation of two, dropping to 250 or just possibly 225 depending on play-test results.

I tried to screen the right side but I lost 4/5 to the reaver, had some good MW rolls and I failed 1 regular roll. They died front to back (reaver PoV) so it opened a gap in the ZoC where the Landing craft just fit in. I suppose I could have changed the setup to prevent it but I didn't really expect him to double move the reaver right over the hill on the first activation.

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Necron AC (click to see current Necron list threads)
Toronto Wargaming Group

Note the existing agreed and actively playtested Avenger stats in the Sisters also combine the Lascannons into a single shot in Epic not two.

The Epic aircraft weapons conventions are a little odd and generally underpowered and undergunned compared to their 40k versions, but this is how they are and need to be.

Glyn, perhaps you could post the Sisters version of the Avenger stats

I can't copy text from a pdf on my mobile but the stats can be found in the pdf in the first post of this thread - www.tacticalwargames.net/taccmd/viewtop ... 30&t=17967

Ok, I understand the discrepancy with the marauder, but my next question is why not just stat the lascannon as 45cm AT5+ AND 30cm AA5+ then?

Second, I understand the desire to have the same stats across lists and iI think that would be a good thing, but I'd also like the stats to be accurate. What gets me is the avenger bolt cannon that's supposed to half a VMB has stats that don't really match. I'd like to see that changed and the points adjusted accordingly especially if this is in an admech list.

As admech these guys will be in the support section rather than allies so I don't think folks will get too far using all their support slots on the avengers since it will cost them elsewhere. I'd like to see these around 200 to 250 for two. I think 275 is a bit much and even 250 is a bit high IMO.

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-Vaaish

The stats for roughly 75% of all Epic aircraft aren't 'accurate', in the sense of having less weapons and/or intentionally lower ranges than 40k. It's baked into the existing lists and balance. In an ideal world it wouldn't be this way, but it would be WAY too big a project to redo most aircraft and lists and we just have to accept the aircraft as being more abstracted and keep new ones in proportion to existing ones and what works in the game. An accurate Thunderbolt should have quad autocannons and a pair of lascannons, not storm bolters and a multilaser, but a big change like this isn't feasible or a good idea for development at this point.

Split ranges for aircraft weapons could have been an idea, though it would have added unnesecary complexity, but from rulebook stats right through to the newest added aircraft this hasn't been done.

The existing Avenger stats have been that way for some time and have been being playtested. This is community development and you need to persuade Zombocom and sisters developers to change them and come to compromises, not ignore them and create a different set for your idea of the same unit.

Is Zobocom still doing anything with the list? I haven't seen much happen there for quite some time. They are free to join in with anything they want to explain or discuss about the Avenger stats from the Sisters list. I'd gather they are aware now that we are talking about from your post in the list. Regardless, back to the topic.

I get that the weapons aren't accurate, however whats bugging me is that the stats aren't consistent for the Avenger Bolt cannon. Typically, even in epic, something like a lascannon or HB gets translated to particular stat line (seems to be 5+ ) which then gets modified for twin linked (-1) and AP or AT gets tacked on to make for the weapons role. Once that's done you don't usually see wild variation for the epic stats for the weapon. In this case, the VMB has had pretty fixed stats all the way from the Titans in the core rules and the Avenger Bolt Cannon is pretty clearly the same thing just spits out half the shots. My question is why is the stat line 5+AP/5+AT instead of 3+AP/5+AT?

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-Vaaish

I'd point out that the Thunderbolt would actually end UP with something like the stats it has, so it's not THAT inaccurate. It's more that the guns are misnamed.

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The Apocrypha of Skaros 1.1
Rogue Trader Expedition 0.4
The Horus Heresy 0.5
Night Lords 0.1
My Trade Thread

Do we really need planes in the list? i know Forgeworld have given a plane option in Betrayal but every army in 40k will be getting one - i think the list feels nicer without any planes and keeping alot of light ground AA.

In the long run i see the Mechanicus as being an army that deal with tanks and war engines without any problems but struggles against mass aircraft and infantry.

With regards to new units i think adding in the Thrallax would be good for the list, i know Vaaish that you have stated before that you dont want to 'make up' units and weapons so i think using some of the units that Forgeworld is starting to provide will be a good thing. i also think adding in the smaller Valdor tank hunter would be a nice addition - something thats a war engine but considerable smaller than the Ordinatus that will play very differently as well. i also (controversially i suspect) think that the Ordinatus upgrade should be removed and give the Mechanicus a dedicated warmachine transport (or remove the corvus assault pod...)

How about this for stats:

Valador Tank Hunter
War Engine
Speed: 20cm
Save: 5+
CC 6+
FF 6+
Neutron Laser Projector, Range 60cm, AT4+ MW TK (1)
DC2, Critical hits: Explodes

Land Crawler armored transport
War Engine
Speed 25cm
Save 4+
CC 6+
FF 5+
2x Hydra Platforms AP5+AT6+AA5+
2x Quick Guns AP5+
Transport:10, DC2, VS1, Critical Hit: Explodes
(taken from the description in Titanicus)

there are stats for the Thrallax in the heresy army list in the Astartes forum that might be worth looking into (remember although the Ordo Reductor use them alot they are not exclusive to just them!)

also Vaaish have you considered toning down the Automaton rule and bringing it out as an army wide rule? remove the part about taking automatic hits when broken and you will have a lovely little rule that will make the Mechanicus feel more.... Machine like!

anyway that was a long post, thanks for reading!