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Proposed Eldar Changes

 Post subject: Re: Proposed Eldar Changes
PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2012 7:57 am 
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Just a few comments

1) Scorpion Twin Pulsars from 2x 60cm MW2+ to 3x 60cm MW2+. - Fair enough as an option

2) Return Ignore Cover to Cobra D-Cannon. - Fine, but if the question is to look to turn this into a true War Engine killer and ok at killing something else then lets look at increasing TK from D3+1 to say D6 or 2D6 it might only hit once but when it does it's devasting to a War Engine. It would certainly justify its points then.

3) Quantity discount for Engines of Vaul Troupe - new pricing is 250 for one and 0-2 more at +200. Not sure about this as a general rule, it's multiple Void Spinners that would concern me.

4) Hornet weapons changed to Twin Bright Lances, 30cm AT4+ Lance. - No comment as not looked at these.

5) Spear of Khaine automatically taken for Ultwe Avatar. Cost: Free. - Do we need this?

6) Titan Power Fist - If we can get 1) & 3) sorted out this might just fall into place anyway.


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 Post subject: Re: Proposed Eldar Changes
PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2012 8:09 am 
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Tiny-Tim wrote:
5) Spear of Khaine automatically taken for Ultwe Avatar. Cost: Free. - Do we need this?


It's a nice little touch for Ulthwé players. I can't imagine anybody using the Spear of Khaine unless they happen to have 25 pts to spare anyway, and if they're free Ulthwé players won't have to paint up 2 Avatar minis.

No opinion on balance.


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 Post subject: Re: Proposed Eldar Changes
PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2012 8:25 am 
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Evil and Chaos wrote:
Dave wrote:
Ah, didn't realize the range and TK difference. I looked at the Rev Pulsars and assumed they were the same as well. Then give the Scoprions 75cm 2xMW2+, TK. That'll make them attractive.

That's what EUK did. It did not make them attractive IMO as terrain generally makes the extra range less of a boost than it at first might appear. Have played against those stats a whole bunch.

Except without the TK, yah

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 Post subject: Re: Proposed Eldar Changes
PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2012 8:31 am 
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Kyrt wrote:
Evil and Chaos wrote:
Dave wrote:
Ah, didn't realize the range and TK difference. I looked at the Rev Pulsars and assumed they were the same as well. Then give the Scoprions 75cm 2xMW2+, TK. That'll make them attractive.

That's what EUK did. It did not make them attractive IMO as terrain generally makes the extra range less of a boost than it at first might appear. Have played against those stats a whole bunch.

Except without the TK, yah

Ah, missed the TK stat. Still I'd prefer an extra shot as that gets it closest to the original Swordwind stats, rather than an upgrade to TK (which'd just make it flat out better than the Swordwind stats).

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 Post subject: Re: Proposed Eldar Changes
PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2012 8:45 am 
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Fine with all these except

Cobra - adding/returning IC make it an infantry, particularily armoured infantry, killer. This isn't supposed to be its speciality -and I don't think will result in an increase in use given that the night/void spinner and assaults are better in this role

Giving it TK (d3) or something like that would be preferable as that would focus it as a WE killer
- would make no difference over just TK vs anything but WEs but would make it capable of killing a DC3 shielded WE in 1 shot

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 Post subject: Re: Proposed Eldar Changes
PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2012 9:09 am 
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My comments on the changes:

1) Scorpion: The Scorpion does not have the same weapon as the Phatom pulsar in WH 40k, no reason to give it to him here. I would agree with SG's proposition, though Ulrik odds calculations showed that 3x 3+ was more in line with its original stats. Considering the change in price for multiples, I would be more confortable with this change first.

A consequence of this change is the relative lack of utility of Fire Prisms. At 2 Scorpions for 450, I dont really see the point of 6 Fire Prisms at 400. In any case, Fire prisms are a tad overpriced atm. In order to keep internal balance, while giving utility to Fire prisms, why not give them 75 cm range. This would be in line with their fulff description where they have double the range of Falcons on the Prism cannon (+ if the IG can do it, why not Eldar?), and given them the utility they deserve in comparison with the shorter ranged Scorpion.

2) The Cobra. EUK has kept full IC for awhile now, and I have yet to see a positive tournament result with a list that fields them. I agree with the full IC change, but I feel the Cobra needs something more. At one point a special rule stating that Cobra cannon should always use Infantry to hit values was suggested. I think that would be good. Or my proposal in another thread to increase trange at 45 cm.

3) Reduced costs for multiple EoVs. I am still unsure about this because of the internal balance issues it poses. If we can fix the relative usefulness of the Fire Prisms and Phantom titan, then I would be in favour of it.

4) Hornets. Firstly I think that they should be able to garrison. This would give them a real niche in the Saim-Hann army. Concerning the weapon load-out and the relative pricing, I think E&C stats and price are balanced, having tried them, even when garrisoning. But the change in weapons would also be ok. 6 Garrisoning Hornets with twin Bright Lances at 250 points is actually more dangerous imho than E&C's proposition.

5) As stated in another thread, the relative power of the TPF is due to the underpowered Pulsar. Eldar Titan Battle weapons are meant to be 1,5-2 times better than imperial Battle titan wepons, due to the fact that Eldar Titan are more fragile, more expensive, and only have two Battle titan weapon mounts. The proposed change as is will only further enbcourage players to play the Assault version of the titans as thats the only place where the extra FF attacks will impact. And that will further bias the list picks towards the Warlock, as he is undeniably better in assault than a Phantom. In other words this only increases the problem, does not resolve it.


6) Concerning the Spear of Khaine, I don't think the Ulthwe Avatar should better than BT. That it would have a little something is fine with me but BT's court of the young king is supposed to be MOAR BETTAR than other Craftworld Avatars. That it would be free I am all in favour of, for the obvious modelling concerns.

7) Exarchs. Something should be done for internal balance, most notably making CC options more attracative (which would perhaps solve the residual banshee problem).

8) Wraithguard are a bit too strong, especially in the mass Iyanden list at initiative 1. I would be in favour a rubric-like rule to make them less mobile, and the spiritseer add-on should be perhaps rethought to simply adding farsight to the formation.

9) I have other comments on the different lists but they are more list specific than general stats. Perhaps a thread should be started for each list?

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Last edited by LordotMilk on Thu Oct 11, 2012 10:51 am, edited 3 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Proposed Eldar Changes
PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2012 9:13 am 
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Rug wrote:
Regardless of IC the Cobra is never going to be very good at WE hunting as a) almost all WE have longer range guns with better arcs! and b) most WE are as fast, if not faster! c) most WE have a better initiative.


*Shrug* I killed a Nurgle Reaver titan with them on saturday. True, they got lucky and hit twice on 8 attacks on 7+ (a pair, both doubling). Even with only one hit I'd have a pretty good chance of killing it at the start of the next turn when they'd be able to sustain fire.

It's possible to get the Cobra into position to take out a titan, but you want at least two.


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 Post subject: Re: Proposed Eldar Changes
PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2012 9:44 am 
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Numbers for various Titan Pulsar rules, for double Pulsar titans (ie numbers for both weapons combined):

Expected number of hits, old Pulse
Code:
Sustained Fire                4.21
Advance, Sustained vs Cover   2.81
Double, Advance vs Cover      1.75 
Double vs Cover               0.96


Expected number of hits, 2x3+ (x2) (current)
Code:
Sustained Fire                3.33
Advance, Sustained vs Cover   2.67
Double, Advance vs Cover      2 
Double vs Cover               1.33



Expected number of hits, 3x4+ (x2)
Code:
Sustained Fire                4
Advance, Sustained vs Cover   3
Double, Advance vs Cover      2
Double vs Cover               1


Expected number of hits, 3x3+ (x2)
Code:
Sustained Fire                5
Advance, Sustained vs Cover   4
Double, Advance vs Cover      3 
Double vs Cover               2


The closest match to the old rules is actually the current 2x3+, so the Phantom wasn't really nerfed by the change (unless you count the relatively high chance (17.5%) of doing 5 or 6 hits with the old rules as outweighing the 25% chance of doing 0 or 1 hits - the distribution of hits is quite different with the old pulse rules).


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 Post subject: Re: Proposed Eldar Changes
PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2012 9:48 am 
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Yuip, but the twin Pulsar Phantom has always been worse than a pair of Revenants at killing things, it's an oold issue.

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 Post subject: Re: Proposed Eldar Changes
PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2012 10:27 am 
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Agreed with Rug that the titan pulsars need to be more attractive rather than fiddling with the Power Fist and chassis etc

I thought we were looking at giving the Warlock, Phantom and Scorpion Pulsars 3x shots which would return them to a position before the 'Pulse nerf'. Personally I would also like the ranges increased to 75cm all round, though for that, the Scorpion at least should become 3x MW3+.

The Scorpion should not get TK IMO - it never had it in the past and this reflects the weaker power relative to the titan Pulsars.


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 Post subject: Re: Proposed Eldar Changes
PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2012 10:29 am 
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Cobra should regain IC.
We should also test increasing the range to 45cm to see if that makes it appropriately powerfull against Titans


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 Post subject: Re: Proposed Eldar Changes
PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2012 10:31 am 
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Agreed that Hornet stats are OTT at the moment, though I am also not a fan of 6x formation.
They should be costed for a 5x formation.


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 Post subject: Re: Proposed Eldar Changes
PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2012 10:51 am 
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If the pulsars are underpowered, why not reinstitute the old Swordwind rule and re-roll successful hits? It wouldn't be 3 guaranteed hits, but it would be an improvement from 2 hits.

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