re: my knight sub-championship
Yes, I want to get it to a point where opponents and players of the list feel it is somewhat balanced enough to provide an intriguing contest against most armies. Actually I'm starting with "what are knights supposed to feel like when facing them?" rather than "some people say they are too tough, therefore I need to reduce their save or increase their points".

As for established lists, I'd rather make more of them usable than tweak existing usable ones into 'perfect balance'. I'm in favour also of making more options usable inside each list, but those amends always create new issues w/ existing builds so we need to thread carefully.

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I do find it amusing that about two years ago several players were complaining about the Warlock being underpowered and folks then were proposing a price point of 750-800. Personally I find it to be a great piece, a top performer for sure, but there is a huge drawback. The point sink in a 3000 point game eats activations which can cripple an Eldar army in turns 2 and 3. The alternative is to compensate with fragile formations like Nightspinners which break like glass. Larger games will see the Warlock’s vulnerabilities increase as a wider range of firepower (like TK weapons) become more frequent. It also has no thick rear armor which makes it susceptible to cross-fire, and dangerously so. I’ve had games where the Warlock dominated, and other games where it was outright destroyed by long range firepower before I could use it.

The Biel-tan list has been a well-balanced list for years. Most calls to adjust things come from people who are having a difficult time adjusting to their flexible play style, either as an opponent or the actual player. A common aspect I’ve noticed is when a particular player will have a fixed army (usually because it is highly customized) and very little flexibility in how to construct it. So they play the same army and oft will play the same strategy. Their Eldar opponent will find that strategy/army composition easy to beat so each time they play the non-Eldar player feels like they are up against an impossible army. The truth is, of course, that the player needs to do better, or change his list (or both). The flip side is true for Eldar players who are either unwilling to try something new or unable to try something new. This guy Carl played with Eldar at a tournament three years ago and got his butt handed to him, however he had a terrible army (a direct result of his lack of money). The next year he was able to order a few more models and his builds became more rounded. He won two out of three games.

Anyone who thinks Vampires over-perform on their air assaults is clearly under-informed. They aren’t terrible, but I’ve watched them get ripped from the sky on too many occasions to call them star performers. Their best delivery is a formation of Aspects, but one good shot with a Hydra and there goes 550 points.

IMO Warp Spiders over-perform. Perhaps it isn’t a huge advantage they have over other Aspects, but I see them as the top choice.

The real secret of the Eldar is how to take all these highly specialized units and make a well-rounded army out of it. If you make a shooty Eldar army you might get lucky… or very unlucky. Same thing with an assaulty Eldar army.

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author of Syncing Forward and other stories...

It's a dog-eat-dog world, and I've got my Milkbone underwear on.

Well said mosc. My sentiments exactly.

The Eldar are probably the most flexible list going, with many different playstyles that utilise most if not all of the various units and formations in one way or another. Some formations and units are much harder to use than others, but that does not necessarily mean they 'under-perform'.

Eldar also benefit most from economies of scale; one formation of a given type may not 'shine', but several may well do a lot better - Night Spinners are a case in point. And they probably offer the most synergies as well. An isolated Warlock may not amount to much and can be broken by shooting if nothing else; mutually supported by 3 or 4 formations it is quite a different proposition, even if the other formations are relatively weak. A warlock can initiate and then support a terrifyingly powerfull 'rolling assault' that can kill off several strong enemy formations very quickly.

Kyussinchains – Hmmm, I own you an apology and as such I sincerely apologize for my error, I’ve been using the Warlock to call the Avatar ever since playtesting for Swordwind and been wrong all that time.

Carlos – knowingly, or unknowingly, I found your turn of phrase to be grating to the degree of being rude, I’d recommend that you to use the 15 minute posting rule in the future. Type it, leave it, review it & then post it.

You'll never get to 18,000 posts that way.

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Currently doing a plastic scenery kickstarter

Tim, you have absolutely nothing to apologise for, it was clearly not intentional, and as I've repeatedly said, it took absolutely nothing away from an absolute stormer of a game, I hope you didn't think I was complaining at all (I don't see why warlock titans can't summon the avatar anyway, being chock-full of dead farseer spirits and all....)

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Just some guy

My hobby/painting threads

Army Forge List Co-ordinator

What the hell is the 15 minute rule? Panties in a bunch rule?

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I realise that the thread has drifted somewhat, but I just want to make something clear given it seems it was a comment of mine that brought this up.

When I mentioned the Warlock, Wraithguard and Void Spinner as "over-performing" units, it was in relation to the process of balancing lists, not the particularities of the Biel-Tan list.

I mentioned those units as examples of the need for balancing and development from both ends of the "power spectrum" within lists, and not just an eternal upwards encroachment.

Personally I find the BT list about as good as it gets!

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My EPIC and BFG Blog: https://epicaddiction.wordpress.com/

There are actually fairly few over-performing units left in Epic I find - unlike under-performing units there has historically been a quick impetus to fix them.

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Currently doing a plastic scenery kickstarter

Banshees walking about holding signs saying "We are the 99%".

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author of Syncing Forward and other stories...

It's a dog-eat-dog world, and I've got my Milkbone underwear on.

Cheating as of late in the U.S. seems to be less of an anathema than it used to be, culturally anyhow. Gamers still consider it to be bad, but I have one gaming friend who -if he spots a mistake that went in his favor- willfully covers it up and expects the other player to find it. He doesn't consider that cheating. Cheating on your taxes, cheating on your wife, cheating on your tests at school... The word seems to be diluted as of late.

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author of Syncing Forward and other stories...

It's a dog-eat-dog world, and I've got my Milkbone underwear on.

In German there are different words with different meanings for "cheating"

"schummeln" or "mogeln" is used if you cheat in a game.
"hintergehen" or "fremdgehen" is used if you cheat your wive/husband.
"täuschen" is used in law and also as a military term. "Täuschungsmanöver" is a "cunning ruse".

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We are returned!
http://www.epic-wargaming.de/

Guys. Can we be careful of both going off topic (discussion of - potentially - over-powered units), and being inflamatory in posts, within this thread?

Thanks.

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https://www.cybershadow.ninja - A brief look into my twisted world, including wargames and beyond.
https://www.net-armageddon.org - The official NetEA (Epic Armageddon) site and resource.