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[NEW!] Harlequin Grand Masque 2.0 DRAFT

 Post subject: Re: [NEW!] Harlequin Grand Masque 2.0 DRAFT
PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2012 7:41 pm 
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Looks good. Minor typo; in the lists, the 'Leader' should be 'Troupe Leader'.
I will see if I can get some testing done over the next 6-8 weeks or so, though life is about to get hectic.


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 Post subject: Re: [NEW!] Harlequin Grand Masque 2.0 DRAFT
PostPosted: Fri Jun 01, 2012 12:33 pm 
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Been mulling through the obvious 'spam' list, and it still comes up at 10 formations, or potentially 9x formations all containing leaders, which leaves us where we were before. I think you are correct in your earlier post that this is still likely to be somewhat OTT (I have an idea that the sweetspot is around 9x formations and 6x leaders). So, I tried hashing around some figures and comparisons etc. and came up with the following suggestions:-

1) Eldar armies that include Harlequins may either have an Autarch or a Great Harlequin, not both. Where the majority of formations are Harlequins, the Great Harlequin must be included to lead them.
    (Enforcing the use of the Great Harlequin is both characterfull and helps control 'Harlequin spam'.
    Also this was an oversight - I don't think the army should have two SC saves, do you :))

2) Increase cost of Great Harlequin to 125
    (this compensates for the Laughing god concept).


3) Increase cost of all Harlequin leaders to 50 points, and add commander to all.
    (This allows Harlequins to lead other Eldar into battle, which seems characterfull and compensates for 'Leader' etc.)

4) Increase cost of Harlequin formation to 325 points.
    (This is justified by the individual cost of each Harlequin at 65 points given all the extras they have. It also allows us to tweak the overall cost of the army.)

So now the 'Spam' all Harlequin army is 3x Harlequin Troupes, 6x Harlequin Jet bike Promenades, the Great Harlequin and 5x Troupe leaders; 9 formations and 6x leaders for a total of 3000 points.

One last, left-field thought; Could we associate the Great Harlequin with a Wraithgate as well? If so, the Wraithgate wording would look like this:
Quote:
The Eldar player may choose to replace one of the Objective markers in his half of the table with Wraithgates at a cost of 50 points, or for free if the Great Harlequin is taken. There may only be a maximum of one wraithgate per army even if Eldar Allies are taken.
What do you think?


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 Post subject: Re: [NEW!] Harlequin Grand Masque 2.0 DRAFT
PostPosted: Fri Jun 01, 2012 10:34 pm 
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    On the Great Harlequin, there are several interrelated thoughts;

  1. We are trying to reduce the number of elite quality Eldar formations without making their costs excessive. This is actually being achieved through the cost of leaders, which must be present for the Harlequin to control objectives. However players are likely to avoid taking the Great Harlequin if they can, especially if we raise the cost to 125 which represents 2.5 other leaders. Hence I think we need to make it mandatory to take him to help reduce spam.

  2. The type of army (Eldar or Harlequin) is determined through the number of formations, not cost. So, a player taking 2x Guardians, 4x Rangers and 6x Harlequin formations need not take the Great Harlequin, even though they have spent 2300 points on the Harlies and upgrades.
    (note also, that while this provides the potential for a form of popcorn army, the cost, size and brittle nature of the 'allies' should temper the power of the Harlies - but time and testing will tell.)

  3. The inclusion of the Wraithgate was part sweetner, part characterfulll because it feels right for most or all of the Harlies to start off-table, but mainly to reduce 'spam'; the point here is that if we leave it up to the player, he is likely to prefer taking a further Leader rather than spend the 50 points on a 'gate and we are trying to constrain that thought.
    (Also note that this will potentially act as a focus for both players, potentially constraining foot-slogging Harlies. I also think many play with the concept that 'gates can be blocked - so while the Harlies can start off-table there is the potential of preventing their entry . . . )

  4. Finally it seems to me that the Great Harlequin is a kind of 'Master of ceremonies' or 'Lord of the dance' and ought to be present to lead the Harlequins as this is what they 'do'; and as such is more appropriate than any other E:A character. Also this is the tipping point of whether it is a Harlequin army with allies or the other way round.


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 Post subject: Re: [NEW!] Harlequin Grand Masque 2.0 DRAFT
PostPosted: Fri Jun 01, 2012 11:06 pm 
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One last thought for tonight; tweaking up the cost of the 'spam' army is intended to make people think of taking 'allies' both to increase the activation count and include more usual formations and strategies.

However this should only be a 'Harlequin' army and Strategy 5+ if the Great Harlequin is present, otherwise it really ought to be the SR of the Eldar list in use.


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 Post subject: Re: [NEW!] Harlequin Grand Masque 2.0 DRAFT
PostPosted: Sat Jun 02, 2012 1:33 pm 
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The problem you highlight is that a player could decide to get all the other Harlequin freebies (especially the SR5+) simply by going to the other extreme of taking a single Harlequin formation with Great Harlequin (450 points), thereby unbalancing the existing lists. So actually, we have to ban taking the Great Harlequin for 'non' Harlequin armies.

What this all boils down to is another entry in the "Harlequin" rule, explaining the difference between taking a Harlequin army and taking Harlequin allies.

Personally I think it is probably OK to handle the other "ifs" in the notes to each element rather than as a single statement in the 'special rule', provided we make it very clear that they are associated with the Great Harlequin - but would like other opinions on this approach.

So the relevant parts would now look like this:-
Quote:
Special Rule: HARLEQUIN
Harlequins may fight as a 'Grand Masque' under the control of their Great Harlequin, or they be taken as allies to another Eldar army under the control of that commander. The Great Harlequin must be included If the number of Harlequin formations is greater than other Eldar formations, otherwise he may not be taken.

Harlequins are lighting fast shock troops who rely on their speed to take the initiative on the battlefield. They disappear as quickly as they appear, and they aren’t suited to holding ground.

Only Harlequin formations with leaders may claim objectives, other Harlequin formations may contest but not claim objectives. At the end of turns three and four, if there are no Harlequin leaders present on the board the Harlequins will retreat back into the Webway. They are not counted as casualties.

Harlequins do not have to roll for blast markers when teleporting.

Harlequins are masters of the Webway. They ignore the 1 formation limit that normally applies to Webway Portals. Harlequins may also re-enter the Webway. Re-entry to the Webway can be accomplished by moving to a nearby gate. Once in the Webway, blast markers remain and would need to be removed through rallying as usual.


Quote:
HARLEQUIN GRAND MASQUE (DRAFT 3.1)
Harlequin armies including the Great Harlequin have a strategy rating of 5, otherwise they have the strategy rating of the Eldar allies. Harlequins, Aspect formations and Titans have an initiative rating of 1+. All other Eldar formations have an initiative rating of 2+.


Quote:
Wraithgate
0-1 Wraithgate
    The Eldar player may choose to replace one of the Objective markers in his half of the table with a Wraithgate.

    1 Wraithgate maximum per army.

Notes
    An army that includes a Great Harlequin can take a Wraithgate as a free option.

    The Wraithgate functions both as a Webway portal and as an objective for rules purposes. It may not be attacked or destroyed.

    Important Note: Wraithgates are one of the smallest types of Webway portal, and may only be used by formations made up exclusively of infantry, light vehicles, and armoured vehicle units that have the Walker ability; formations that include any other type of unit may not use a Wraithgate to enter play.

Cost
    Free or 50 points


Quote:
Cegoragh – Laughing god
0-1 Laughing god
    Cegorach, the Laughing God, can appear on the battlefield as a vision at the beginning of any turn (before teleports).

Notes
    An army that includes a Great Harlequin can take Cegorach, the Laughing God as a free option.

Cost
    Free with the Great Harlequin


Quote:
Great Harlequin
0-1 Great Harlequin
    The Great Harlequin must be taken if there are more Harlequin formations than other Eldar formations, otherwise he may not be included in the army.

Notes
    You may add a Great Harlequin Character to any Harlequin stand for +125 points.

Cost
    125


Does that cover everything adequately?


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 Post subject: Re: [NEW!] Harlequin Grand Masque 2.0 DRAFT
PostPosted: Sat Jun 02, 2012 2:05 pm 
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As to 'popcorn' armies, they are armies that are built with the specific aim of out-activating the opponents, to use the spare activations for some tactical or strategic advantage. Typically they will be 14+ activations, though by their very nature, the formations chosen are likely to be weaker and less capable than others. For example consider the following possibility:-

4x groups of Guardian, Rangers, Falcons and Night Spinners for a total of 2700 and a formation of Aspects / Nightwings etc; 17 formations with some AA, Artillery, AP and assault capabilities. The intention being to stall initially and then use the 5-7 final activations to lay BMs and set up for the next turn.

The issue with the Harlequins is the number of 'uber' assault formations that could be manoeuvered in this fashion. Using the same list as above and taking 2x groups or 8 formations for 1350 points, you can also get 2x Harlequins and 3x Jetbikes for 1475 leaving 175 for upgrades. This is a total of only 13 formations which can perform in a similar way as a popcorn army, but is likely to prove too brittle in the end.


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 Post subject: Re: [NEW!] Harlequin Grand Masque 2.0 DRAFT
PostPosted: Sat Jun 02, 2012 9:28 pm 
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Just as aside, its worth mentioning that the Great Harlequin doesn't need to have leader as its built into the supreme commander special rule.


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 Post subject: Re: [NEW!] Harlequin Grand Masque 2.0 DRAFT
PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2012 10:31 pm 
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Thanks for this. The Harlies are brutal when they get into contact - it is up to you to ensure that happens. One possibility is to have a strategy that attempts to set up several alternative threats so that at least one will succeed, giving a platform for further attacks.

Rug evidently used the correct tactics to keep the major threats at arms length, where the Harlies can be picked off.

I suspect that it may be quite challenging to find the correct balance between 'normal' Eldar and Harlie formations, together with the appropriate strategies and tactics.


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 Post subject: Re: [NEW!] Harlequin Grand Masque 2.0 DRAFT
PostPosted: Sun Nov 30, 2014 4:44 am 
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Forgive me if necroing is frowned upon here, I was directed to this thread as the latest update on working on Harlequins. Was wondering if the points cost couldn't just be bumped up in a regular Eldar list so that the unit would rarely be taken in serious, balanced play - yet still be available for those so inclined for personal or "coolness factor" reason.

Also - has anyone done any further testing on the proposed rules? I have yet to play a single Epic game (or regular 40K for that matter, though I've been in the hobby off and on since ...1987?).

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 Post subject: Re: [NEW!] Harlequin Grand Masque 2.0 DRAFT
PostPosted: Sun Nov 30, 2014 5:25 am 
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We have a new Eldar Army Champion, who is looking to get the main Craftworlds approved and then might look to bring the Harlequins back from the dead. They were always a very difficult unit & army to balance.

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 Post subject: Re: [NEW!] Harlequin Grand Masque 2.0 DRAFT
PostPosted: Sun Nov 30, 2014 6:33 am 
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if you've never played a game of epic it's probably a good idea to start playing some games wit IG, SM and orks before starting to look at the obscure lists....

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