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Sniper clarification please

 Post subject: Re: Sniper clarification please
PostPosted: Wed Jan 04, 2012 4:45 pm 
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Dave wrote:
You assign where you want the sniper hits to go, and then the opponent allocates normally, skipping those units who already have a hit on them (from the sniper). Then they roll to save.

This isn't quite correct. The Sniper player has choice of when to allocate - before or after normal allocation - so you can double up with the Sniper hits if you like. All saves are after allocation, so you can't wait for the normal hits to resolve and then decide where to put the Sniper hits. You have to choose to double up beforehand, so you may "waste" hits if the target fails the first save.

FAQ:
Quote:
Q: The Sniper rule, 2.1.14, states that the player can allocate Sniper hits to any unit in range and LOF. Does this mean that you can allocate Sniper hits to units that have already been allocated a hit?
A: Yes. The player with the Sniper should be allowed to allocate that hit freely, before or after the other hits are allocated.


Mephiston wrote:
Flying power fists from extra attacks are now acceptable as EA are not a second round of combat as they used to be. So if a power fist cc attack can go to a unit that wasn't in base to base (and often will as it is a MW hit) then I don't see why the sniper ability should be limited.

Contentious and could be seen as gamey but that's how I see it right now.

I agree with this. However, Chroma has long been an advocate of the CC-only allocation and we never resolved it. It is my understanding that the Nid testing has been proceeding with the CC-only version for a long time now.


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 Post subject: Re: Sniper clarification please
PostPosted: Wed Jan 04, 2012 4:52 pm 
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The problem I have with allowing CC sniper to be put on any unit within 15cm and LoS is that commanders can still be targeted despite being completely surrounded with friendly troops (and thus unabled to be based by the Lictor). Additionally, they can be targeted as if they were in base-to-base but get none of their CC extra attacks.

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 Post subject: Re: Sniper clarification please
PostPosted: Wed Jan 04, 2012 5:11 pm 
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Well then don't put sniper on the lictors CC weapon put it on the FF weapon.


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 Post subject: Re: Sniper clarification please
PostPosted: Wed Jan 04, 2012 6:06 pm 
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Mephiston wrote:
Well then don't put sniper on the lictors CC weapon put it on the FF weapon.
::)

Or just write a FAQ that states hits can only be allocated to what's in range and LoS of the weapon. With it being CC, the only things in range are those in base contact. :P

Which ever way we go I still think we need a FAQ for it.

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 Post subject: Re: Sniper clarification please
PostPosted: Wed Jan 04, 2012 6:26 pm 
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Then we disagree. I've no massive problem with sniping CC.

And I think this thread has probably answered the OP's question and meander into new territory that should be taken to a new thread.


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 Post subject: Re: Sniper clarification please
PostPosted: Wed Jan 04, 2012 6:36 pm 
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Hi Guys

My original question was related to Space Marine Scouts and the Sniper upgrade.

In that particular case I am guessing they have sniper ability on all weapons (no distinction between CC and FF weapons) so they roll as per normal in an assault, but I get to allocate their hits? Regardless of whether they are in CC or FF (since CC and FF only drive to hit statistics, not hit allocation).

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 Post subject: Re: Sniper clarification please
PostPosted: Wed Jan 04, 2012 6:52 pm 
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The upgrade says it's added to the unit, which means only the Scout's shooting attacks gets it I believe. In order to get sniper on your FF and CC hits you'd need it specifically listed on an assault weapon or small arms line.

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 Post subject: Re: Sniper clarification please
PostPosted: Wed Jan 04, 2012 7:00 pm 
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95% sure it's FAQed that Sniper in the unit notes only applies to ranged shooting weapons, not CC or FF.

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 Post subject: Re: Sniper clarification please
PostPosted: Wed Jan 04, 2012 9:33 pm 
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Yep:
Quote:
Q: Can the Sniper ability be used in an assault?
A: Unless specifically noted on the datasheet (for example, by addition to a small arms weapon), Sniper ability does not apply to attacks in assaults.


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 Post subject: Re: Sniper clarification please
PostPosted: Wed Jan 04, 2012 9:46 pm 
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So you need sniper on the weapon to allow sniper? In that case as the lictor has sniper on its CC weapon it can still snipe. If it had sniper in its notes, like Eldar Rangers it couldn't.

Have to say the UK tournamanet scence hasn't been using this FAQ and sniping assaults have been allowed IIRC.


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 Post subject: Re: Sniper clarification please
PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2012 12:26 am 
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However, this does not answer the question of whether or not CC 'sniping' hits must be allocated to unit(s) in B-B. There seems to be opinions both ways, though the Lictors are the ones that lose out by having EA+1 on their CC attack and no FF capability.

So I would favour suggesting that the first CC sniper hit must be allocated B-B, which would allow some EA hits to be allocated elsewhere. Thoughts?


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 Post subject: Re: Sniper clarification please
PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2012 12:42 am 
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After rereading the rules, it seems pretty clear how this should pan out. First, the description of who attacks how:
1.12.5 Resolve Attacks wrote:
All units have two assault values: a close combat value and a
firefight value. Units that are in base-to-base contact with the
enemy use the close combat value, while units that are not in
base contact but are within 15cm and have a line of fire to the
enemy can use their firefight value. Units that are armed only
with close combat weapons and do not have any small arms or
other ranged weapons may only attack if in base contact with
the enemy


Second, the section on allocating hits:
1.12.5 Resolve Attacks wrote:
Each player allocates the hits and make saving throws in the
same manner as they would when allocating hits from
shooting. Hits may only be allocated to units that were directly
engaged in the combat (i.e., that belonged to the attacking or
defending formation and which were within 15cms of the
enemy after charge and counter-charge moves were
completed).


Thus BtB or not determines what stat (FF/CC) to use, but there is no "memory" of whether a hit was scored in CC or FF. This makes sense to me, as CC units would advance after killing their first stand (or the enemy would counterattack towards them), thus allowing them to kill units they were not in BtB with at the beginning of combat. I'm fine with CC/Snipers being able to snipe outside of BtB, because (in the Lictor's case in particular) the natural camoflauge would allow it to move undetected for some distance, making it appear where it is unexpected. It also follows the precedent set by every other attack (including CC/MW) in engage.

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 Post subject: Re: Sniper clarification please
PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2012 3:08 pm 
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I agree with spectrar ghost and I was also going to refer to the allocation rule. Since ordinary CC attacks can be allocated to units not in base contact, then I see no problem with CC sniper attacks doing the same.


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 Post subject: Re: Sniper clarification please
PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2012 4:41 pm 
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The Sniper rules would suggest otherwise:

Some infantry units are noted as being snipers. Roll separately
when attacking with a sniper unit. If they hit, the attacker can
choose which enemy unit is hit from those within range and in
the line of fire of the sniper unit.
In addition the target suffers a
-1 save modifier.

The hit must be allocated on a unit in range of the sniper unit, so a unit with only CC sniper weapons like the lictor should only be able to apply it in base contact.


Postscript: Basically, the sniper rules were never intended to be used for anything other than ranged shooting, so there are inconsistencies if they're used in an assault.

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 Post subject: Re: Sniper clarification please
PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2012 4:50 pm 
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If you're saying that CC hits can only be applied to units in base to base then units would also lose any EA attacks if they're initial target is killed.

This is not the case anymore so I don't see how you could apply it to sniper. Maybe just a flat "sniper ability can never be used in an assault".

What was the idea behind giving the Lictor sniper in the first place? Just wondering.


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