This came up in a game last week and I dont know if I played it right so, Ill check here cus I dont want to screw up teaching the noobs only to piss em off later.

1. I assaulted a scout formation with a chaos cult formation, the Scouts were spread out to the max (30cm) to hold ground and block my advance. basicly what happened is in the engagment I only had range to 1 scout (who died) and I won the fight by 1 point after rolls. This left 1 scout far off to my right and 2 to my left , with my unit in between. Since I won by 1 it wasnt enough to kill a extra scout so he was left with 2 in coherancy and 1 way out , even after fall back moves. dose the scout die automanticly? or dose he have to move into formation the next chance(activation) he gets?

2. This ones more of a personal quirk that I kinda ignored till latly when I started teaching others how to play the game ,some like it and some dont, some say its legitement tactic, some say its F-ing gay, depending on who you ask. I was thinking of a simple some thing to help patch the problem as the people in my group who Im teaching to play are litrily starting to hate the game and dont want to play it if it countinues to happen and as some one who likes this game and wants to get others into playing it, its a problem... Clipping. simply put I want to add a assault modifier to(in my oppinion) help deal with this a bit. -

+1 if 4 or more models are not in range (defender only)
+2 if 8 or more models are not in range (defender only)

a simple idea for a quick fix I know, but like I stated above, I need to do some thing. If any one has any other ways to deal with it please post them. but please, ideas for the problem, not merits as to why its should be/not be changed as this is more for my own small group and obveusly wont be any good any where else, I just till the group starts to get the game and the tactics a bit better.

Thanks

Q1. If after the first withdrawal move the lone scout would be destroyed, giving the formation one blast marker which isn't enough to hack down another marine. It's in 1.7.4

Q2. Tricky. Can I ask are you using the 2008 rules review version of assault or straight out of the printed book? No if the attacker loses all the units he committed to fight (rolled dice for) then he losses the assault and there is no support fire. Clipping isn't really frowned upon, token assaults were.

Yes.


Clipping is an intended part of the game, and it's quite risky: If you're the attacker, and only have 1 unit in range to firefight, and that unit dies, you automatically instantly lose the engagement.

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In the games I been playing and watching it happens like this - smaller formation engages into range of small part of larger formation. smaller formation kills 2-3 guys for sure, larger formation kills maybe 1, 2 if lucky. assault mods push it over for smaller formation, big unit breaks cus it lost 2-3 guys from a 10-15 man formation.....?... .. .

I know it dosnt happen all the time but the modifiers show this by it being 4 or more and 8 or more. The adverage unit is 6ish and unless they are spread out in a straight line as far apart from each other possible, they wont get the bonus. The idea is for the big exspencive 12+ man formations that (in my exsperince) end up with half the unit out of range every time an engagement happens. It also makes people who are thinking about clipping have to consider that bonus for the enemy if they engage less then they probly could.

How small is small? The larger formation should be +2 for out numbering/double outnumbering so that should remove any blast marker differences...so kills would put the small formation on +1, hardly a massive bonus on the roll off.

Maybe go through one of these assault stating the numbers of each formation and how many of each side get to fight?

Honestly that sounds pretty much how the rules are supposed to work.

If it's happening all the time, try manoevering your forces differently, and remember that you are allowed a 5cm counter-charge when you're engaged (10cm if it's a fast unit).

Also remember that if the big formation is Orks, and the small formation is Marines... well... Orks *should* lose in firefights against Marines!

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1. As Meph notes, formation coherency is checked after each move. Withdrawal is actually 2 moves. You'd check after the first.

Also, the controlling player gets to decide which of the formations are out of coherency. If there were some reason you wanted the small piece to stick around, you could do that (though there are usually dire consequences).

2. I would not. "Rolling up a flank" has been a traditional military tactic for millennia and that's what a clipping assault is. There are defenses against it - defend your flank in depth, use appropriate screening formations, and so on. Also, clipping is an expected part of the game and formations are priced based on their ability to use the tactic.

again, sorry if I didnt make this clear, Im not looking for why its good/bad/it was intended. I'm looking for any way to get new people into playing by preventing them from quiting due to this rule.

Show them how to screen their vulnerable formations by using a line of scouts.

Show them not to spread their formations out so much that they become vulnerable to being clipped.

Show them that Orks are going to lose in firefights anyway, so *really* pay attention to the above two points.

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Clipping and intermingling are two intrinsic tactics that just need to be demonstrated in a "friendly" fashion, along with the explanation that this can and does happen in real life. You shold also show how to avoid them, and the occasions where they are intentionally used.

Use these as a start into other more legitimate tactics (prepping targets, using scout screens, air assaults etc). The point is that this is an explanation into the "2nd level" of the game, after you have explained the basic mechanics.

Equally, the training scenarios (or perhaps Minigeddon) are a good way to introduce and demonstrate some of the more subtle aspects of the game.

yes, I like that idea E&C, I think I might just how to shove sentinels, horses and scouts down their throwts till they get it. hmmm, maybe go back and start making their army lists for them again... what do orks have for screening units?

To me your fix is just an increase on the outnumber/double outnumber factor already in there to give larger formations a benefit in assault resolution. At +1 or +2 its still not a given the attacker will end up on top.

Stormboyz make good screeners.
Fast enough to get into position, nasty enough in CC to be a threat, with the scouts ability letting them spread out.


By my reading, you're just finding that your Ork armies are getting out-manoevered by Marines (a Firefight army) and perhaps Guard (Also reasonable in a firefight).


Other things Orks can do to defend themselves from being engaged include:
- Having a Big Gunz formation with an Oddboy on Overwatch.
- Having several hard formations near to each other, making attacking one formation unpalatable as another will soon kill you.
- Anchoring one end of a battle line with a super-hard unit like a Gargant.
- Using fast transports to help them not be out-manoevered.

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well we have (currently ppl with there own armies) 1 eldar , 2 mariens , 1 IG, 1 undesided with 1 im pushing towards orks. So its those armies I have to coach them on. I think it might just have to play the waiting game and hope they "get it". But its so god damn hard to get people into epic waiting more might be too painful!