Login |  Register |  FAQ
   
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 272 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19  Next

[UPDATE!] Tyranids v9.2.1

 Post subject: Re: [UPDATE!] Tyranids v9.2.1
PostPosted: Wed Nov 17, 2010 11:37 am 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Sat Aug 02, 2008 3:22 pm
Posts: 5682
Location: Australia
I think you are looking for this type of list: viewtopic.php?f=21&t=19117

The 9.2.1 really does just account for the older nid list/builds where Warriors were the bodyguards. It is updated with Ravenors who, as you have found, play a vital role in this list. They are simply... Awesome! :)

You would not leave the hive fleet without them.

_________________
Frogbear is responsible for...
Previous World Eaters
Previous Emperor's Children
Previous Death Guard
Previous Imperial Fists
Previous Chaos Squats


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: [UPDATE!] Tyranids v9.2.1
PostPosted: Wed Feb 16, 2011 10:22 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother

Joined: Fri Feb 11, 2011 11:18 pm
Posts: 5
I'm an old school player, with a good sized tyrannid force. I've played Marines several times while learning EA, and now I'm setting up for a bug game.

My problem is, I can't actually field my army by the rules that are here. My ~5000 points of bugs peters out around 3000 based on these rules.

My army was based around Termagants, genestealers, and bug vehicles. I've got 20 termy stands, 26 genestealer stands, but only 5 each gargoyle and hormagant. That essentially means I've got 7 "basic" brood units, allowing 3 vehicle choices.

I've got good opponents who recognize the absurdity of the limitation, and are happily letting me redesign unit construction, but I really need to ask a question to the list designers.

The tyranid army is supposed to represent the most flexible, adaptive and creative force in the game. They carry the genes from hundreds of worlds, which they can combine to make pretty much any bug they need.

So why is this the most limited of all the force lists? There is just one way to play it - lots and lots of base infantry. You can take a few other selections, but pretty much every bug force of reasonable size is going to need to put down most of its stands in gaunts, raveners, and gargoyles. It doesn't matter who the enemy is, the hive mind cannot adapt to maybe take more artillery, or more anti-vehicle bugs, or whatever.

My Dom's want to have units of exocrine and haruspex to deal with enemy armor, without a bunch of gaunts getting in the way. I realize they can shift synapse units, but that seems like a complexity that causes a lot of disagreement on the forums and pain for the standard victory condition formula. My 9 trygons could not dream of making it onto the field, unless I want to find some new models for "raveners" and play in an absurdly large game, which would require even more gaunts..

Also, what happened to bug transports? And no AA? How can any army expect to compete in EA if it has no aerial deterant? My imperial opponent thinks nothing of 3 or 4 plane detactments.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: [UPDATE!] Tyranids v9.2.1
PostPosted: Wed Feb 16, 2011 11:08 pm 
Purestrain
Purestrain
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jul 28, 2003 10:43 pm
Posts: 7925
Location: New Zealand
Mattakar I made similar comments to Chroma, i.e. that the ratio fo infantry required to other choices makes it a restricted one dimensional force, that is also way out of wack with collections people have from previous editions. Both factors lead to some frustration.

_________________
http://hordesofthings.blogspot.co.nz/


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: [UPDATE!] Tyranids v9.2.1
PostPosted: Thu Feb 17, 2011 12:29 am 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother

Joined: Fri Feb 11, 2011 11:18 pm
Posts: 5
Well, I'm going to try it as best I can; I'm not sure whether to do just a small game with what is "legal" or make some units that do their best to follow the spirit of what is already here, but let me field my army.

The AA thing really worries me, I hope my opponent doesn't go for the easy win.

I'm unclear on a few things... how many synapse group can be in one activatable unit? Assuming I had the points, could I put 6 HT's together? 10 Tyranid warriors? Is there any limit on how big a single activatable swarm I make? 20 termagant stands, 5 hormas, 3 Trygons and a Dom?


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: [UPDATE!] Tyranids v9.2.1
PostPosted: Thu Feb 17, 2011 12:58 am 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Wed Sep 01, 2010 4:03 pm
Posts: 1081
Location: London, UK
I've found the lack of AA is not such a big worry as you might think. There's generally a gentleman's agreement of sorts where people bring take-on-all-comer lists instead of customising them against opponents. Having said that, I find that to beat my Tyranids my opponents need to really, really hammer the formations. And generally aircraft drop BMs and kill a few gaunts but don't have the power to break fms outright which is what engagements are for. No, really! Besides your gargoyles can lay down a BM - just include gargoyles on all the major fms just for that. 9.2.1 sort of forces you to do that anyway.

_________________
Image
Image


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: [UPDATE!] Tyranids v9.2.1
PostPosted: Thu Feb 17, 2011 8:18 am 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Sat Aug 02, 2008 3:22 pm
Posts: 5682
Location: Australia
Quote:
There's generally a gentleman's agreement of sorts where people bring take-on-all-comer lists instead of customising them against opponents


I took an mass airfoce list to a tournament and crushed the only Nid player there with it. I think one has to take into account AA as you have to talk on a level of tournaments, not based on gentlemen agreements.

BM on nids is a bad thing as it can potentially mean a 2 point defecit to the upcoming combat.

_________________
Frogbear is responsible for...
Previous World Eaters
Previous Emperor's Children
Previous Death Guard
Previous Imperial Fists
Previous Chaos Squats


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: [UPDATE!] Tyranids v9.2.1
PostPosted: Thu Feb 17, 2011 10:31 am 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Wed Sep 01, 2010 4:03 pm
Posts: 1081
Location: London, UK
I was talking from experience too. But then again, people's idea over here of aircraft is a couple of fighters + thunderhawks so not life-shattering for the nid players.

_________________
Image
Image


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: [UPDATE!] Tyranids v9.2.1
PostPosted: Thu Feb 17, 2011 3:40 pm 
Purestrain
Purestrain

Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2003 10:52 pm
Posts: 9617
Location: Nashville, TN, USA
Mattakar wrote:
So why is this the most limited of all the force lists? There is just one way to play it - lots and lots of base infantry. You can take a few other selections, but pretty much every bug force of reasonable size is going to need to put down most of its stands in gaunts, raveners, and gargoyles. It doesn't matter who the enemy is, the hive mind cannot adapt to maybe take more artillery, or more anti-vehicle bugs, or whatever.

Hello Mattaker. My collection contains a lot of metal and relatively little plastic (in proportion), so I feel your pain with respect to the focus of the list. As far as how the list arrived where it is...

The design philosophy on Tyranids has changed several times over the years. When Jervis wrote the first draft list, it was supposed to be a "horde of fangs and claws" concept. He was especially adamant that the "everything any other army has, just biological" was a bad idea because it pigeonholed the Tyranids as just another version of a normal army.

Despite that, Epic development slowly went to "old school" bio-vehicles being allowed. The results were bad. Disastrous is arguably not an overstatement. The list was basically stripped down and sent back to the starting point for redevelopment, with the intent of keeping the horde concept front and center.

Since then the main GW studio and FW have introduced more big bugs. However, they have for the most part not taken the path of "biological tanks and arty" and have instead put a Tyranid-specific spin on big bug abilities. The old school Epic unit concepts just don't fit in a lot of ways, so they've been tweaked to be more in keeping with the official Tyranid army style. That means downgraded shooting and a greater emphasis on assault and close support.

Quote:
My Dom's want to have units of exocrine and haruspex to deal with enemy armor, without a bunch of gaunts getting in the way.

Tyranids don't use batteries of biocannons to engage in artillery duels any longer in the background fiction. The massed biotank/bioarty Tyranid formations of the past are now portrayed as a rare exception rather than the rule.

Quote:
Also, what happened to bug transports?

Same as above. Transports were intentionally cut due to the design philosophy of the GW studio. None of the 40K units have transport any longer except Harridans. The gribbly hordes have to walk.

Quote:
And no AA? How can any army expect to compete in EA if it has no aerial deterant? My imperial opponent thinks nothing of 3 or 4 plane detactments.

As others have noted, a lack of AA is painful, but it's one of the defining weaknesses of the list.

That said, it may very well have become too much of a weakness at this point. Personally, I'd like to see Meiotic Spores get a bump in ability and/or drop in price so that they can be a real, if modest, deterrent.

Mattakar wrote:
I'm not sure whether to do just a small game with what is "legal" or make some units that do their best to follow the spirit of what is already here, but let me field my army.

The list is still in development, so by all means feel free to experiment. I suspect strongly that if you stick to the spirit of the list you will have little trouble. There almost never is.

The problems always crop up when people take an option which is in the spirit of the list and find a way to manipulate that option outside the spirit of the list, so that the result is unbalanced. The army list is intended for a tournament environment and has to take power-gamers into account.

But if you and your friends agree, play it however you want and just have fun.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: [UPDATE!] Tyranids v9.2.1
PostPosted: Thu Feb 17, 2011 5:46 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Tue Feb 24, 2009 12:57 pm
Posts: 491
Location: Liverpool
In the near term I don't think any of the current variant lists or the 9.2.1 list will meet with your approval for lots of bio-tanks. All the lists place a great emphasis on gaunts and gargoyles (I can't see you getting a better ratio than 1 bio-tank per 2 gaunt/gargoyle stands). The only current list that will allow a higher proportion of heavier elements is my Bio-Titan Draconis list but it's a modern fleet list (so no Haruspex, Malefactor, Dactylis or Exocrines and contains units with no available models) and it will probably be almost completely rewritten in line with ongoing discussions.

It might be worth you trying to get a hold of the F-ERC Tyranid list as the last version I saw was less restrictive of some of the heavier units.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: [UPDATE!] Tyranids v9.2.1
PostPosted: Fri Feb 18, 2011 12:13 am 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Sat Aug 02, 2008 3:22 pm
Posts: 5682
Location: Australia
At the end of the day, I just hope that everyones minis (both old and new) are represented in a list.

Let the player base decide what they want to play, not just the need to see 1 list. If there is not a list to represent the majority of nid collections out there (old skool nids), then there will always be a rival list apposed to GWs ever expanding need to change a list for profit.

_________________
Frogbear is responsible for...
Previous World Eaters
Previous Emperor's Children
Previous Death Guard
Previous Imperial Fists
Previous Chaos Squats


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: [UPDATE!] Tyranids v9.2.1
PostPosted: Fri Feb 18, 2011 12:19 am 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Fri May 05, 2006 2:57 am
Posts: 20887
Location: Harrogate, Yorkshire
I remain firmly convinced that there needs to be two lists, one of all the old models, and one of the new stuff.

Trying to cram it all into one will just result in bloat.

_________________
Currently doing a plastic scenery kickstarter


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: [UPDATE!] Tyranids v9.2.1
PostPosted: Fri Feb 18, 2011 12:28 am 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Fri Apr 20, 2007 1:49 am
Posts: 5569
I totally agree with E&C.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: [UPDATE!] Tyranids v9.2.1
PostPosted: Fri Feb 18, 2011 12:29 am 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Sat Aug 02, 2008 3:22 pm
Posts: 5682
Location: Australia
Agree.

Edit: re-reading my post above, it did not come across, however that is what I was alluding to.

_________________
Frogbear is responsible for...
Previous World Eaters
Previous Emperor's Children
Previous Death Guard
Previous Imperial Fists
Previous Chaos Squats


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: [UPDATE!] Tyranids v9.2.1
PostPosted: Fri Feb 18, 2011 12:35 am 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Wed Nov 16, 2005 7:20 pm
Posts: 5483
Location: London, UK
But guys, it sems we are also talking of major changes to the spawning mechanics to achieve this, not to mention changing or removing other rules that are at the heart of the Nids.

While I applaud the principle of different lists to allow for model (and indeed army) variants, they *must* use the same core rules!


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 272 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19  Next


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  


Powered by phpBB ® Forum Software © phpBB Group
CoDFaction Style by Daniel St. Jules of Gamexe.net