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Xenos Tunneller Thread

 Post subject: Xenos Tunneller Thread
PostPosted: Mon Dec 06, 2010 7:18 am 
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Ok picking up where we left off, and making this an exclusive thread to deal with the tunneller rules as they apply to the Xenos project, here goes. Oh and on the way I will be posting the new Squat list in the next week. Been pretty happy with our in house playtesting, while not complete, as the group is too small for that, it will be a good starting point.

Now that Neal has knocked my head back into what we had originally talked about, and thank you Neal (Brain Fart on my part, call it old age)

Here is the last posted Tunneller rule. Things in italics are my additions, fluff stuff, hey that rhymes ;D

Quote:
Tunneler
Tunnellers are set up touching their own side's table edge before the battle starts at the same time that spacecraft are setup (see EA 4.3.1). Any units transported in the tunneller should be placed to one side at this time too.

Secretly write down the location where the tunneller will surface at the same time and in the same manner that you record the coordinates of a drop zone (see EA 4.3.1). You must also secretly record when the tunneller will surface. If it is going to surface in your half of the table it may arrive from the second turn onwards. If it is going to surface in the opposing half of the table, it may arrive from turn three onwards. The reason tunnellers cannot appear earlier then the turns given here is because it takes time for the tunnellers themselves to get to the points in which they are going to emerge

Set up the tunneller at the start of the stated turn, before placing units with teleport, at the location you wrote down. Any units being transported are allowed to disembark immediately upon surfacing. Surfacing does not count as movement for the purposes of triggering overwatch fire. Disembarking triggers overwatch fire as normal.

If the tunneler surfaces on terrain that is impassable for it, under a friendly unit, or in an enemy zone of control then it is assumed that on-board sensor equipment will divert it towards another entry point. The unit should be moved by the opposing player to the nearest area where it can surface.

Formations of multiple tunnelers need only record one location where they will surface. Place a unit at this location, or within 5cm of another unit that has already been placed, so long as all units are placed within 15cm of the location and on the appropriate half of the table.While the tunnellers themselves may take much different paths to reach the emergance point, moving underground of course, they will emerge as a group to insure formation integrity upon surfacing.

Tunnellers, and any units being transported in them, may take an action on the turn they appear.


Squat Only Rules Additions for Termite, Mole, Hellbore.

Squat Moles and Termites are basically on a 'one way trip' because they do not have their TBMs available to them to re-enter the ground. In effect they are abandoned once they have delivered their cargo back to the surface, and they remain inactive and in place for later recovery. The Hellbore is just too massive, and too expensive, to be abandoned in this manner, and has itself been designed to function on the surface as a fighting machine.

Rule: Once Termites and Moles surface they remain in place and do not move, effectively giving them a movement of 0cms. They remain active, as fighting units of the formation they carried, as long as they remain in coherency range of mobile units of the formation transported. Once the formation moves out of coherency of the Moles/Termites they are removed from the table and play no further part in the game.

The Hellbore, of course will follow all the rules of WE transports, nuff said here as I am only posting the above to keep the debate going on the Xenos project.

My comments............................

I would like to add a rule for the Termites, Moles, and Hellbore that lets them avoid scattering IF the TBMs can see the emergance location, but they scatter if the TBMs cannot. This may be adding a bit much to the rule, but I wanted to mention it anyways.

Let the debate continue.

Jaldon

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 Post subject: Re: Xenos Tunneller Thread
PostPosted: Mon Dec 06, 2010 11:11 am 
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Seems *really* wordy.

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 Post subject: Re: Xenos Tunneller Thread
PostPosted: Mon Dec 06, 2010 3:16 pm 
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I'd rather keep the fluff and rules in separate paragraphs or just have the rules and a "Designers Note" in a separate box or something. I think clarity of the rule is more important than explaining why its working the way it is.

On the notes on Moles and Termintes, I don't think we need it at all. If we give them Move 0cm, Tunneler, and Expendable that will govern them as your rule intends without all the extra copy. If we want the extra clarification I say just throw it in a FAQ but I don't think another rule is necessary. For the Hellbore, so long as its a separate formation it doesn't matter if what it transports moves off without it.

What's making the delivery units scatter?

Quote:
I would like to add a rule for the Termites, Moles, and Hellbore that lets them avoid scattering IF the TBMs can see the emergance location...

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 Post subject: Re: Xenos Tunneller Thread
PostPosted: Tue Dec 07, 2010 12:51 am 
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I stuck the fluff in the rule text only to show what it was connected too, as always it would, and should, be seperate. My bad for not clarifying that :'(

Quote:
On the notes on Moles and Termintes, I don't think we need it at all. If we give them Move 0cm, Tunneler, and Expendable that will govern them as your rule intends without all the extra copy. If we want the extra clarification I say just throw it in a FAQ but I don't think another rule is necessary. For the Hellbore, so long as its a separate formation it doesn't matter if what it transports moves off without it.


Good point, hadn't thought of it that way, had my head so wrapped around it 'being' a rule.

Quote:
What's making the delivery units scatter?


I am taking this from the old Squat rules (Titanticus) where the TBMs provided direction to the tunnellers moving underground. In those rules the tunnellers scattered further if the TBMs couldn't see the exit point.

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 Post subject: Re: Xenos Tunneller Thread
PostPosted: Tue Dec 07, 2010 1:50 pm 
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Go back and read the Swordwind special rules for the Eldar. Really wordy is a good description of those too. I do agree that -for now- we need to separate them into design notes and bolts & nuts, but adding a short paragraph of fluff for the final supplement is just fine with me and in the spirit of the original two publications. Keep your notes.

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 Post subject: Re: Xenos Tunneller Thread
PostPosted: Tue Dec 07, 2010 3:23 pm 
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So the scatter would be an extra rule to sit on top of Tunneler then? Is this something that could be abstracted out though? There's bound to be on-board positioning systems on the delivery units to direct them to the correct exit point. They had that in fluff I've read (Iron Warriors in Chapter's Due and the Inquisition in Scourge the Heretic I believe).

Mosc, ya that's what I was thinking as well. Not necessary at this point but down the road it should be added.

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Last edited by Dave on Tue Dec 07, 2010 3:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Xenos Tunneller Thread
PostPosted: Tue Dec 07, 2010 3:28 pm 
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I think the rule is okay and agree that there is no need for a special explanation for moles and termites. You can add a "design note" explanation if it needs clarification.

Scatter: I have no strong opinion about whether this is included. However, I would say that if there is going to be scatter, I would tend towards making that the default situation, i.e. all tunneler units scatter, and have avoiding scatter be a special ability. Having an exception that adds scatter and at the same time a means to avoid it seems clunky.


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 Post subject: Re: Xenos Tunneller Thread
PostPosted: Tue Dec 07, 2010 4:48 pm 
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I have a question: why are we retaining the on-board guidance system section from drop pods with the tunneler rule? That rule is there because of the scatter effect of planetfalling and it seems unnecessary. Perhaps the exact nature of tunneling is what we need to get down to. There is a coordinate that is written down and that should be where they come up. If the player was silly enough to have them come out on impassable terrain, so be it. If they show up in the midst of an enemy formation, so what? There are already mechanics in place to deal with both of these situations and I see no benefit to mirroring the drop pods in this particular situation. IMO the blessing (or curse) of the tunnelers should be their exact arrival.

Removing this block of text also streamlines the rules.

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 Post subject: Re: Xenos Tunneller Thread
PostPosted: Tue Dec 07, 2010 5:02 pm 
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Moscovian wrote:
If they show up in the midst of an enemy formation, so what?

For many of the formations the player will effectively be allowed to choose to arrive within 15cm of the plot point. That would make Tunneler-as-ZoC-disruption pretty easy to pull off.

Maybe that's okay, maybe not, but it would need to be considered.


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 Post subject: Re: Xenos Tunneller Thread
PostPosted: Tue Dec 07, 2010 5:04 pm 
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If a formation of multiple tunnelers is showing up in the middle of a formation the player is still allowed to place them as he sees fit within the restrictions above. I can see this open to the abuse of a player placing tunnelers in base to base with certain units from the formation and even encircling some so the formation can't move away without breaking coherency.

If planetfall units aren't allowed to do it I don't think tunnelers should be allowed either.

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 Post subject: Re: Xenos Tunneller Thread
PostPosted: Tue Dec 07, 2010 5:33 pm 
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Devil's Advocate: the big assumption is that the tunneling formation is in a position to defeat the formation(s) that the arrive under. A formation of 8 sandhogs showing up under a 'Uge Mob would be pretty ugly for the Squatties.
--
Question for Jaldon: why/how would the Hellbore be able to travel on the surface? What makes it different?

And should the Hellbores, Termites, and Moles 'launch' on turn one as an activation? Or are they assumed to be en route on turn 1? ePilgrim and I went in circles on this because the easiest thing to do is just say "This formation is underground". But you run into the problem of this really cool miniature not being on the board. What's the point of having the carriage and model at all if they just surface at some point in the future? Thoughts?

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 Post subject: Re: Xenos Tunneller Thread
PostPosted: Tue Dec 07, 2010 6:04 pm 
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Ya, but 600 points of Tyranids could show-up right in the middle of an arty company...

Queue Lt. Frank Drebin, "Oh ya? Well two can play at that game!" (grabs a random citizen and holds them hostage)

We can go back and forth like that forever, but here's how I see it. I can't think of any special placement rule that allows you to start in an enemy's ZoC. Do we really want to add something like that now, and test for it in addition to all the other things that need testing at this point? I guess what I'm getting at is it seems to be a convention, so lets stick to it.

Re: should launching be an action ect.

If we do this then Tunneler will need to be written to accommodate it. On the model argument, here's my take:

Even if the model starts on-board and then activates to tunnel the carriage can't remain there, it's out of coherency and needs to be removed. It's also unlikely that the tunneling player won't tunnel as soon as he can (as he doesn't want it destroyed). So, even if we make Tunneling an action I don't think the carriage will be staying on the board long anyway.

At that point I'd rather just have the thing sitting on the edge of the board with my spacecraft. I can't really see any army wanting to drive so close to the enemy that their "surprise attack" can be shot up before it does anything. They'd launch it way back at some airbase-esque facility where it's out of harm's way until it surfaces.

If they're expendable, the tunneling units will at least be able to remain on the board a bit longer. So long as their within coherency.

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 Post subject: Re: Xenos Tunneller Thread
PostPosted: Tue Dec 07, 2010 6:27 pm 
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Quote:
And should the Hellbores, Termites, and Moles 'launch' on turn one as an activation? Or are they assumed to be en route on turn 1? ePilgrim and I went in circles on this because the easiest thing to do is just say "This formation is underground". But you run into the problem of this really cool miniature not being on the board. What's the point of having the carriage and model at all if they just surface at some point in the future? Thoughts?


Note:All rational thoughts will be in italics, or irrational as the case may be ;D

Moscovian you and epilgrim are not alone in having this debate, the same has happened to me and my friends. My 'solution' for the TBMs is to have them on the table as a guidance system for the tunnellers. Because they are underground and do not know what is really in front of them once they are launched, areas of dense rock that could hinder their progress and need to be avoided, they then need the TBMs to redirect them to the exit point

As for the Mole/Termite they Remain on the table immobile and can add their meger combat systems to the battle as part of the formation they were carrying. Once they fall out of coherency they are removed as abandoned. This, at least, gets the models on the table surface, even if it is only for a short time.

I am not saying this is a perfect solution, it isn't, but it is the best I have come up with so far.

Quote:
Question for Jaldon: why/how would the Hellbore be able to travel on the surface? What makes it different?


The 'excuse' I am using in general is in keeping with the WE transport rule, also it seems silly to have a WE transport/tunneller that disappears once it is left on its own. Even just keeping it as an immobile bastion, like the Ork Rok, feels wrong. The Mole and Termite are pretty much at their limit in internal space so they do not the extra room to fit a viable surface track systems. They could use their boring system to move, but on the surface this amounts to a speed of feet per hour instead of miles per hour. So once above ground they pretty much have to depend on recovery from their TBMs, after the battle. The Hellbore is a very large machine with more then enough internal space to include deployable tracks to allow it to move on the surface on its own, and at a reasonable speed.

Now am I sold on all of this.......NO, but it is the best I have been able to cobble together for use on the gaming table.

Quote:
Keep your notes.


I have a single file folder containing all the Squat stuff from the begining, alabeit not too well orgainized within the folder, but there never the less. Maybe I should start dating them so I know which applies to what and when :D

Thus far we have been not allowing tunnellers to appear in the midst of a formation, just like drop pods they are shifted to an open area out of ZOC, and as per the rule I posted above. I do think it would be overpowering to allow tunnellers to appear in the midst of an enemy formation, though I admit I have never tried it either.

Jaldon

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 Post subject: Re: Xenos Tunneller Thread
PostPosted: Tue Dec 07, 2010 7:30 pm 
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Point taken on the BtB issue.
--
As for the Tunnelers starting on the board or not, I am slightly inclined to say that it is assumed they are underground at the beginning of Turn 1 for the sake of streamlining things. I had ideas about maximum tunneling ranges and and movement and such, but I think they are best left in scenarios.

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 Post subject: Re: Xenos Tunneller Thread
PostPosted: Tue Dec 07, 2010 8:30 pm 
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Ok Guys, some wild thoughts from 'left field' - please excuse if you have already thought of them :)

Models
I would tend to treat them like drop pods and DeathStrike launchers respectively:-
Termites (and any other 'disposable' vehicle) can be kept on the table for 'scenic' reasons just like Drop Pods (I also use mine to assist with placing the relevant formations).

'Launchers' could be retained as real vehicles and activate as such. Providing they are still on the table they could provide guidance to the tunneller removing the need to scatter (see below)

To launch or not to launch
(or there is no such thing as a free launch :))
Hellbore (and other major assets:-
Treat the Hellbore like a kind of one-shot WE 'missile', the bare launcher as an AV. The Hellbore has 0cm movement (but can tunnel) while the launcer has perhaps 15cm??
When the 'launch' activation is successfully declared, The player records an unmeasured guess at the exit point of the Hellbore which can travel up to perhaps 50cm per turn? When entering the table, if the estimate is over the speed limit and the Launcher has not moved, move the notional exit point back in a straight line towards the launcher.

Disposable vehicles and underground Tyranid swarms start off-table, and take a while to travel - so arrive in turn #2 at the earliest. Their entry point is plotted at the start of the game like spacecraft.
They have to 'activate' to arrive, and may declare an assault, but the scattering process may result in them ending up out of reach of their intended target.

Scattering
I think all unguided formations should scatter 3D6 in a random direction. This simulates tunnelling through rock strata or the availablitiy of tunnels in the right places. (Note I am not suggesting that the player gets to move the exit point first like the Drop pod rules).

WE whose launcher has not moved do not scatter, but my arrive up to 15cm from their intended exit point. The WE must activate to arrive

Enemy formations
Unless assaulting, tunnelling formations may not arrive in the ZoC of enemy units. The opponent moves the exit point the minimum distance to clear the ZoC.


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