I ain't stewing... and least not in vile hatred!

I haven't commented on this list as I've been spending my "hobby time" on getting the NetEA army docs in order (To all Army Champs and Sub-Champs: PLEASE send me your latest docs if you haven't; it's extremely frustrating to do all the layout and data for a list and then discover it's been updated in a post rather than a doc/pdf so what I've done has been overwritten.)

That said, my examination of this most recent version makes me feel the Onachus list is overstepping its original concept as an "early invasion"/Phase III list and is stepping on the toes of the "generalist"/Phase IV list. In my mind, an "early invasion" list should have no Bio-Titans, or probably even a Dominatrix, or even heavier Bio-Tanks/Artillery as they wouldn't have had time to be grown/evolved. Such a list should be about the infiltrating organisms, spore pods raining down, and hordes of basic gribblies throwing their bodies at the enemy.

I do like the different "sizes" of swarms, but I don't like it as just a direct replication of the way Ork armies are made.

More to come as I review it more fully. Thank you for your patience.

bugger, I'll have to try harder..

It's good to reaffirm the intent of the list.

I'd note that Onachus is 'spawned' off of 9.2.1. (Which has generated a range of observations about the fact that it looks like 9.2.1).

I'm guessing that Dave wants to avoid losing the extensive thought, testing, and balancing that went into 9.2.1. This means making incremental changes on that baseline list... ideally incrementing up to a 1.0 list that is 'early invasion.'

I posted a Trygon popcorn batrep and have updated the list. Reasoning is here:

viewtopic.php?p=381361#p381361

In addition, I clarified the first paragraph a bit after answering a few of Meph's questions about it. I just rearranged the order of the sentence to remove any ambiguity.

Re: Cary. Yes, the thought here was to not throw the baby out with the bathwater so we could draw on the games we've played in the past and those posted in the development.

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Squats 2019-10-17

As a new epic player not up on the politics of the epic community or the objectives/philosophy of each phase of a tyranid invasion, I would like to see this list continue to evolve as an alternative for people with old tyranid armies who don't want to kitbash a bunch of new bugs. Roll on Onachus 1.0!

Ah yes. Thems were the days. When nids fell from the sky in swarms supported by 15+ Biovores bombing the crap out of the opposition.

It would be good to have something back of those times.

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Not wanting to get more miniatures is different to wishing for a return to past cheese.

Cheese was necessary when you saw the opponent I was against. Each to their own really, but Epic was always about getting the most out of a force to win. I guess it all depends on the quality of your opponent as to your definition of play.

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To paraphrase Moscovian's earlier post, a goal of the list is to attempt a planetfall mechanic that prevents this type of thing, and failing that, make planetfall part of a scenario in the larger Xenos fan supplement.

FB, your last post was a little opaque - care to clarify?

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Let us playtest like the Greeks of old... You know the ones I mean

Firstly, anything of a drop force is a good thing. People seemed to have missed the word "something" in that post.

As for my last post, I tire of people using the word 'Cheese' as a justification for why the way they play is the 'friendly' way. In all honesty, if you not playing scenarios or testing a list, and you are attempting to play tournament level games to strengthen ones tactics, you should always take the best force you can manage. Epic is not a shy game, you can lose troops en masse. Ignoring that fact is fooling ones self.

Also, it is a fact that if you play the best opponents you can find - those that others cannot seem to beat - naturally your learning curve increases dramatically. What you learn from those experiences you apply which then sees you winning more games - which then people call 'Cheese'? It is a little tiresome - that's all.

You take each Epic game as it comes - you question what does not make sense at the time - yet invariably, don't blame your opponent for ones own inability to win the game due to another's tactical choice of units within a prescribed list.

That's all I was saying. I am tired of 'Cheese' being bandied around as an excuse.

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Who said anything about cheese as an excuse? I admit that I misunderstood your post about things dropping from the sky. I thought that you were complaining about how things were in the original epic tyranid rules (which I quite like, hence my support for the onachus project) and that misunderstanding shaped my previous post.

That's cool. I must admit that I have been tired and have other RL things that I was doing. This was more of a release than anything.

I miss the old nid rules as well. Although I have my reservations, if this list can produce a well supported drop podding variant to the nids, it would be a welcome change.

I like 9.2.1. I would also like the well supported drop variant as well.

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I seem to recall Agincourt was won by 'cheese.' And then there was Jan Zizka.

sorry i don't know if someone already tell this , but hormagaunts (even with infiltrator) are a little too weak compared to termagaunts , maybe +1 extra attack?

I have to say I agree with E&C that this changes some of the core rules of the Nid list to date. The modifications to the initiative process particularly struck me in terms of how much different they are.

There's certainly an argument that the Onachus system is more elegant in certain ways. I don't have a problem with them (without having played them), but I think there needs to be a real effort to reconcile them with the core list and determine a unified set of special rules.

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Edit: On to more direct list discussion.

Initiative changes - They are much more streamlined, and there is definitely streamlining needed. My though on what to watch (aside from the general flavor/feel they create) would be arty formations. The Nid arty units themselves are pretty decent compared to IG or Eldar, but they have a substantial advantage in Initiative.

That might apply to a lesser extent to other shooty formations as well. Those are pretty limited in your list but it might be more of an issue in other Nid lists where they aren't so restricted.