Actually, the planes are navy assets. They are no more "ally" and no less "ally" in either cases.

Not necessarily. The Guard does not generally seem to move around without some form of Navy escort. The Marines, on the other hand, can and frequently do.

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I think you mean "+1" here Steve...

And, yeah, with the +1 to hit, they're great... well, I've always thought T-bolts were great.

Both before and after. Jervis floated the "experimental rules" that led to the 2008 update within a few months of publication, back in about '05. There were years of complaint, even after most board participants were using them.

There where always complaints about the T/bolts but I've found players are now using them much,much better than before (it just took the +1 on intercept to get players taking them more).

It's not just the CAP ability it's there all round use that makes them worthwhile. When I take Marines to an event they are the second choice on my list after Warhounds.

I was not around to see that discussion, however do you not think that has changed now. As dptdexys stated, they are normally a 2nd choice.

Hey, I am making a Marine list.... 2x Warhounds, 2x Thunderbolts (for now) - 4 activations for 850 points - and now I will look to see what Marines I am taking...

Surely the initial list purchases highlight the problem with a Marine list. If we keep beating down these changes (like happened with the weak back-off from the Warhound changes), we will never see play tests (over a trial period) or changes for the better.

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Yep. Clearly, it has. The question, though is whether the pendulum is going to swing back. I've seen too many changes implemented that had to be undone, like Eldar Spirit Stones. Something looks a bit off. It's changed, and then after everyone adjusts it is overkill or just plain wrong.

The "different SR means different value" argument is valid, but +25 points is +17% to the cost. I seriously doubt the value of the higher SR is anywhere near that.


I don't disagree with the sentiment, but at the moment I'm not convinced the "Tbolt problem" is a power and balance thing as much as it is about flavor. It seems to me the problem is that a large portion of the "special" units for Marines are not Marines. If they were, this kind of build would be a non-issue. No one would care.

As a point of comparison, it's pretty much a given that any Ork list I field will have 6-12 Fightabommas, usually towards the high end. It's practically unheard of to have an Ork army that doesn't have fightabommas. That's not because they are overpowered. They are solid all-around aircraft and the best AA option in the list. They are a limited choice to cover a required combined-arms element. Even though that makes them something of a no-brainer, nobody complains about FBs being ubiquitous because they are orky.

When SM players consider the same issues, they take Tbolts for the same reasons.

I suppose the question for me boils down to, if it's really about play balance, why don't we see SM forces with max or near-max Tbolt formations? You might argue that it's because the Warhounds soak up the allotment, but people are only talking about a 9% increase for Warhounds (to 300 points). If Tbolts are really providing a hidden 17% premium as proposed, they should still be crowding out Warhounds.

Neal, I agree with your sentiments on Tbolts. They form a natural part of the Marine list, boosting AA capacity, and providing a usefull aid to mopping up broken formations. The +1 for interception makes them very effective (and really improves the Ork FBs as well).

Warhounds are a bit more problematic (and always have been), because their firepower, speed and resilience are as good or better than most marine formations, whilst they are rather cheaper (hence why they will always be taken in preference to Predators, and as for Devastators . . . .).

People miss the point that the previous +25pts increase was to reduce the maximum 4x Warhounds in a 1000pts list. It should be noted that since the changes, fielding 3x Warhounds are unusual in the UK tourney lists (the spare 25pts for RBacks as TRC says).

Do you have any views on how we might proceed here? Should Warhounds be 'rarer'? Could the other parts of the list be improved in some way without wrecking the list? Indeed should they?

How about, if I follow Neal's suggestions on Chaos, you move the Thunderhawk to the War Engines allotment. Or is that too precious?

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