Have you actually read the discussion? ie how a 25pt increase is a waste of time?

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I don't know, if you gave it 2x turbo lasers it'd actually be of more use for Marines, giving them stand-off capability with a high rate of AT fire... that's a Titan worth at least 350pts to Marines.

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If people are still taking Warhounds at 300pts, then at least it's a step in the right direction as far as I'm concerned, showing that Warhounds are simply worth at least 300 (Or likely, more) points to Marine players.

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It depends what our aim is.

If we want to balance the marines +2 warhounds list, then yes, that will probably work, by forcing the marine player to drop 50 points elsewhere.

If we want to make the marine list more background representative, it won't work, since people will still take 2 warhounds, and less marines since they will have to drop 50 points elsewhere...

Then all that implies is that Warhounds were dramatically under-priced in the first place.

If they're being selected before any other formation types, it's because the abilities they bring to the army are too good/valuable for their price, it's that simple IMO.

It's not just the MW shots, IMO.
If MW deep strike were really so important, we'd see more Land Speeder garrisons backed up by Air Assaults or Teleports to activate FF after a Double move from the Speeders.

It's simply their overall abilities, fast, shielded, well armoured, reliable (Critical), decent firepower, decent FF/CC, fearless... in toto they are just too good to be priced the same as a Predator detachment.

Now, you might argue that Predators are still underpowered for their cost (Especially the Destructor), but if the Warhounds are taking one step back whilst the Predators are taking one step forwards... then balance can be sought by moving both in the appropriate directions.

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And Tacticals are inefficiently priced @ 300pts, of course they're going to be swapped for Devastators to pay to keep a pair of those awesome War Engines. Am I alone in saying that Tacticals should have a minor points drop? (Notably, Tacticals are not a good Thunderhawk formation... so a points break there would help boost the "mud marine" style whilst leaving the standard T-hawk lists unaffected).

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And if you do nothing else Hena, please look again at the critical hit effect. Please!

As duly appointed Titan Guy I'm going to open a thread on this in the AMTL sub forum.

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Funnily enough I would have less of a jarring sensaation always seeing marine tanks in support of marines rather than titans!

Ont he points though - you are now reducing the amount of marines int he list further in an attempt to curb warhound repitition!

Indeed- but should we be aiming for a point where a marine list without warhounds gives a player as good a chance as with? Currently all the marine attack strategies are complemented by having warhounds - drop, air assault, teleport, drive.

Maybe we should ban warhounds fromt eh next few tourneys and see what the lists dominated by them change and how the players cope!

Yes because it is pretty much the most mobile. you can through steadily feeding in teleports and air assaults and warhounds with blocking ground units totally mess up someones attack, disrupt their C&C no end and still haveformations in the end game to take objectives. In a way you can say they play the game system and GT scenarios the best while other lists are better at playing each other around the scenario.

I have to say it was armed with another junior titan weapon like the TLD I'd still go for it. I think its more the AT capability at 105cm which is important. (To be honest i would prefer the TLD!)

Changing it to the inferno gun/VMB would be interesting as the range drops in a big way - it would mean hitting formations after they activate not before and most problematically remove the ability to mess up AA formations like falcons and hydra before the air assault goes in, though terminators could be a substitute.

I do like this sort of approach and to be honest it is similar to the one I've tried with the NETEA Dark Angel list that is confronted by the complete lack of warhounds and thunderbolts (well bar the scouts, in retrospect its a good change though as I would currently take them over assault marines every time) - though there it has the option of slight stat boosts instead of points drops.

Those that question speeders - after the terminators, warhounds, scouts, thunderbolts, thunderhawks are bought its land speeders next, a wonderfully versitile (I quite like the cuurrent NETEA Dark Angel idea of the squadron matching the pack - 3/1/1 - for 225).

Any breaks have to be focused on the upgrades to stop the list turning into an even higher activation one than it is now.

Actually I can assure you they do best with warhounds (witness the forays into warlords ). Reavers are almost as good in some metagame situtations but have significant weaknesses, not least they are a slightly too eaasy BTS for the points compared to a mobile marine detachment and easier for anti titan units to deal with than 2 warhounds. They are also a very different capability, with far less of a deployment zone alpha strike.

And even if the 'rest of the world' drop it I would like to see some sort of change in the UK. Currently I think its taking a little of the fun out of the game. And nothing is wrong with fine tuning - getting the list to the point where there are multiple builds where not all are improved by warhounds would be great. It would be fantastic if I was trying to decide between LV's/AV's and WE's for my marine support, rather than picking 2-3 warhounds, some thunderbolts and then planning the rest of the army.

Problem with that is it reads more like 1 warhound not 0-1. I would hope this is all more about trying to inject competitive variety not making the lists even more predictable.

Indeed, whilst putting a 0-1 cap on Warhounds would be fine if they were given the correct points value for their abilities, if you don't fix their points/value ratio first all you're doing is papering over cracks.

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