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Consolidating Blood Rage and Red Thirst
frogbear
 Post subject: Re: Consolidating Blood Rage and Red Thirst
PostPosted: Fri Oct 29, 2010 10:55 pm 
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nealhunt wrote:
There are so many assumptions wired into this statement that I don't know where to start.

Yep. However alot of those assumptions go back to having formations in positions and possibly having a sufficient activation count. The activation count has already been addressed by yourself in the past, so really, I still see the whole thing as a non issue - but like everything, I am up for playing the games and providing the situations and results.

Just make sure these skills are given to CC units and they should be fine. Leave it to playtests after that, as endless "assumptions" have a habit of taking over arguments in a negative way - so much so that nothing gets done.

Quote:
As far your defense of the units, if the units aren't being taken in play, then that's a problem with the internal balance of list.


Not really. When you talk about competitive (tournament) as opposed to a normal (play at home) list, every army has units that will never been considered. That is not a balance issue but rather a schmuk (I am going in to win) issue that one should expect from tournaments. Then again, I may be missing a list build or two that would make use of the formations - hence why I invited one or two lists to be made.

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Re: Consolidating Blood Rage and Red Thirst
PostPosted: Fri Oct 29, 2010 11:06 pm 
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Quote:
Quote:
As far your defense of the units, if the units aren't being taken in play, then that's a problem with the internal balance of list.


Not really.

Yes, really.

Quote:
When you talk about competitive (tournament) as opposed to a normal (play at home) list, every army has units that will never been considered.

Only if the list is badly designed.

And yes, some of the official army lists suffered from bad design.
That's why the ERC stepped in to make Reavers and Warlord Titans better, and later the NetEA made Baneblades better, and Warhounds worse, etc.

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Last edited by Evil and Chaos on Fri Oct 29, 2010 11:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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frogbear
 Post subject: Re: Consolidating Blood Rage and Red Thirst
PostPosted: Fri Oct 29, 2010 11:09 pm 
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Once again, we digress, but I will play along...

Show me a list where every unit/formation is a viable competitive choice for a tournament list and not overshadowed by others.

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Re: Consolidating Blood Rage and Red Thirst
PostPosted: Fri Oct 29, 2010 11:10 pm 
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Quote:
Show me a list where every unit/formation is a viable competitive choice for a tournament list and not overshadowed by others.

Orks.
Especially EpicUK's Ork list.

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frogbear
 Post subject: Re: Consolidating Blood Rage and Red Thirst
PostPosted: Fri Oct 29, 2010 11:13 pm 
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Evil and Chaos wrote:
Orks.


I will come back to you on that one as I do not play them, however you must know this little exercise is a failed attempt right from the start. All I have to do is find one unit that is better than another and that is game.

One that comes to mind is the Gunfortress?

Like I said, I will be back - what it achieves however is beyond me.

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Re: Consolidating Blood Rage and Red Thirst
PostPosted: Fri Oct 29, 2010 11:16 pm 
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what it achieves however is beyond me.

It achieves nothing but to demonstrate your own refusal to accept that "trying to achieve a decent level of internal balance" is actually a good idea.


Now, instead of theoryhammering with a list which you don't play, and have little experience playing against, how about re-writing the special rule(s) again so we can see where we are.

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frogbear
 Post subject: Re: Consolidating Blood Rage and Red Thirst
PostPosted: Sat Oct 30, 2010 12:23 am 
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Here goes:

Quote:
Formations that have a Aggressive unit who can potentially reach base contact in a charge move to an enemy unit, receive a -1 modifier to their initiative roll if they decide to perform any other action other than an Engage action.

Note that this rule does not affect transport aircraft that are carrying Aggressive units.



Quote:
Formations that have a Bloodthirsty unit who can potentially reach base contact in a charge move to an enemy unit, receive a +1 modifier to their initiative roll if they decide to perform an Engage action.

Note that this rule does not affect transport aircraft that are carrying Bloodthirsty units.


How is that?

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frogbear
 Post subject: Re: Consolidating Blood Rage and Red Thirst
PostPosted: Sat Oct 30, 2010 12:33 am 
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Evil and Chaos wrote:
It achieves nothing but to demonstrate your own refusal to accept that "trying to achieve a decent level of internal balance" is actually a good idea.


You really do understand me. It is really hard to keep taking these small jabs (this thread and others) when I am being mis-represented. Have I only reworked the World Eater list over and over again for 18+ months to merely play around with numbers and to increase a post count? Really, is that what I am doing here?

What makes anyone think that I am not interested in Internal balance above all else. I have 4 lists going at the moment all attempting to attain "a decent level of internal balance" and that is why they keep changing and I keep inviting feedback rather than go off half-cocked to produce a list and then accept that it is done.

Seriously E&C. Do you really think there are any other ulterior motives? Why is it that if I defend a line of thinking, I am instantly wrong? Why do I desreve all the "You" and "your" directives in these posts? Are we not out to achieve the same goals in the end?

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Re: Consolidating Blood Rage and Red Thirst
PostPosted: Sat Oct 30, 2010 12:53 am 
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I've done a grammar, newbie-friendly & rulebook-style pass over your text.

BLOODTHIRSTY
Quote:
Some units are noted as being bloodthirsty. These units desire close quarters combat above all, and can become unreliable if they are ordered to avoid such encounters.
Formations that have a bloodthirsty unit which can potentially reach base contact with an enemy unit after a charge move receive a -1 modifier to their initiative roll if they attempt to perform any action other than an Engage action.

Note that this rule does not affect transport aircraft that are carrying bloodthirsty units.



AGGRESSIVE
Quote:
Some units are noted as being aggressive. These units will obey even the most suicidal of attack orders with a level of bravery that borders on madness.
Formations that have an aggressive unit which can potentially reach base contact with an enemy unit after a charge move receive a +1 modifier to their initiative roll if they attempt to perform an Engage action.

Note that this rule does not affect transport aircraft that are carrying aggressive units.

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Last edited by Evil and Chaos on Sat Oct 30, 2010 1:13 am, edited 1 time in total.

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frogbear
 Post subject: Re: Consolidating Blood Rage and Red Thirst
PostPosted: Sat Oct 30, 2010 12:59 am 
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They look fine to me.

1. Is there something that people can see that we may have missed?
2. Are the above rules ready to place into lists to allow play tests. This (I feel) will help produce the examples where problems may be found.

Honestly, for the World Eaters, it does not change much if anything as the two will be made 'list wide' for play tests.

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Re: Consolidating Blood Rage and Red Thirst
PostPosted: Sat Oct 30, 2010 1:03 am 
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frogbear wrote:
It is really hard to keep taking these small jabs

They are not small jabs (Personal attacks), they are points of debate.

There is a big difference between attacking someone's ideas, and attacking someone personally, and whilst I will do the former freely, I will do my best not do the latter.

Quote:
What makes anyone think that I am not interested in Internal balance above all else.

When you say something like this, it more than slightly implies you don't think internal balance is paramount:
"...every army has units that will never been considered. That is not a balance issue..."

Quote:
Seriously E&C. Do you really think there are any other ulterior motives? Why is it that if I defend a line of thinking, I am instantly wrong? Why do I desreve all the "You" and "your" directives in these posts?

Would it be cause less affront if all debate were phrased so that personal pronouns of the first and second person were avoided?

A useful debate is impossible without defining, clarifying, cogitating on, and if appropriate challenging ideas.

Assigning temporary ownership to ideas is a useful tool in debates, do you not agree?

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Last edited by Evil and Chaos on Sat Oct 30, 2010 1:18 am, edited 2 times in total.

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BlackLegion
 Post subject: Re: Consolidating Blood Rage and Red Thirst
PostPosted: Sat Oct 30, 2010 1:09 am 
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I wqould switch the names "aggressive" and "bloodthirsty". "Aggressive" has apositive feel to it (so +1 to Engage). "Bloodthistry" has a negative feel (more uncontrollable, so -1 to all but Engage).

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Re: Consolidating Blood Rage and Red Thirst
PostPosted: Sat Oct 30, 2010 1:12 am 
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Happy to switch the names.
Plus, that'd mean the Blood Angels would end up being bloodthirsty, heh. :)

EDIT: Edited the text above to switch the names.

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frogbear
 Post subject: Re: Consolidating Blood Rage and Red Thirst
PostPosted: Sat Oct 30, 2010 1:16 am 
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Evil and Chaos wrote:
do you not agree?


I have the greatest respect for people that are consistent contributers to the EA game.

I am very careful to learn from past mistakes and make sure that I treat everyone (that deserves it) with respect.

Your clarifications do appease concerns - sometimes it is very hard to determine what level of sarcasm or detestation is in a post. That is why I attempt to not use the 'you' and 'your' if it can be avoided. That's just me.

Maybe we should all just adopt what Chroma said ~16 months ago and just place smiley faces at the end of all our posts.

:)

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frogbear
 Post subject: Re: Consolidating Blood Rage and Red Thirst
PostPosted: Sat Oct 30, 2010 1:19 am 
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probably place a comma after 'charge move' to break it up. That is one long sentence otherwise.

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