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Consolidating Blood Rage and Red Thirst

 Post subject: Re: Consolidating Blood Rage and Red Thirst
PostPosted: Thu Oct 28, 2010 9:33 pm 
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However... a real problem I see is that the "-1 in range" allows a gamey tactic - use a broken formation's withdrawal move to bait a formation.


I do this all the time with broken Fearless formations (to block and to bait).

Actually, I am so known for it in our group, people have started using it with the usual catch phrase, "you taught me that". :)

Oh, and the logic is flawed as standard broken formations cannot be within 15cm of the enemy.

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 Post subject: Re: Consolidating Blood Rage and Red Thirst
PostPosted: Thu Oct 28, 2010 9:46 pm 
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Oh, and the logic is flawed as standard broken formations cannot be within 15cm of the enemy.

Lots of things, including all Marine Vehicles, move faster than 15cm.

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 Post subject: Re: Consolidating Blood Rage and Red Thirst
PostPosted: Thu Oct 28, 2010 10:01 pm 
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Evil and Chaos wrote:
Ironically, this does result in two different special rules, to replace the two lists' current special rules,


and this was the issue I faced when attempting to implement the rule at first. There were ideas around at the time of those with "World Eaters" in the title having this ability and then having another rule, etc etc. In the end, it was placed over the whole force - however that does not mean it cannot change to be usable for all lists. Currently, as Blood Rage sits, it is usable for any Khorne force being World Eaters or other if required (as it references 'Followers of Khorne' and not World Eaters in the actual rule).

Now there are a few ways of doing this, and for the sake of simplicity, I am just going to use the name Blood Rage.

1. The whole army has it and you attempt to balance from there (that is pretty much what I have done so far)

2. You have the over-reaching rule and then have the blurb that [insert unit names here], are effected by the Blood Rage rule (or not effected - whatever is easiest)

3. You break the rule up into a rule and a skill (Blood Rage and Frenzy Skills) and add that new skill (Frenzy) to the required unit datafax (this is something I have stayed away from in development).

4. Something totally different that I have missed?

With an over-reaching rule, the current line of: Any follower of Khorne formation which.... , could be changed to something like Any unit gifted by Khorne formation which.... or something like that (it was just a quick line for the sake of an example) would work as then you could have the line that is found in all Chaos Cult lists, yet changed to be appropriate such as : All Blood Angels have been Gifted by Khorne

Happy to work with any of the ideas to get this to work with other lists. Let's just keep it simple rather than develop complicated or cumbersome rules.

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 Post subject: Re: Consolidating Blood Rage and Red Thirst
PostPosted: Thu Oct 28, 2010 10:05 pm 
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Evil and Chaos wrote:
Quote:
Oh, and the logic is flawed as standard broken formations cannot be within 15cm of the enemy.

Lots of things, including all Marine Vehicles, move faster than 15cm.


Ah yes. I was talking to Morgan about this yesterday how bikes are a liability due to their movement. You take the good with the bad I guess. In most other cases, when you need a Charge, it is usually there and not found wanting.

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 Post subject: Re: Consolidating Blood Rage and Red Thirst
PostPosted: Thu Oct 28, 2010 10:29 pm 
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frogbear wrote:
Oh, and the logic is flawed as standard broken formations cannot be within 15cm of the enemy.

In addition to what E&C pointed out, anything with Infiltrate ability (a huge swath of the WoE list).

===

On to other matters... What kind of applicability will this have to other lists?

BA: Everyone, or just DC? Or split so everyone gets the benefit but only DC get the drawback? Might be an expensive list if the latter.

Khorne Cultists (at least the most far-gone).

Squat/Demiurg Berzerkers?
Something in the Inquisition, perhaps?
Any future lists people can foresee?


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 Post subject: Re: Consolidating Blood Rage and Red Thirst
PostPosted: Thu Oct 28, 2010 10:34 pm 
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BA: Everyone, or just DC? Or split so everyone gets the benefit but only DC get the drawback? Might be an expensive list if the latter.

I would have thought the whole list would get the drawback, and perhaps the DC could get both the drawback and the benefit. (Though I'd be happy enough leaving them with just the drawback too).

The Blood Angels "Thirst" ability is seen as a curse, not a blessing. It makes them irrational, prone to doing stupid things (Squads of Devastators downing their guns and charging into CC are mentioned in the codex).

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 Post subject: Re: Consolidating Blood Rage and Red Thirst
PostPosted: Thu Oct 28, 2010 10:49 pm 
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So we're looking at something like the following:

FRENZIED
Quote:
If a formation has at least one unit with the Frenzied ability that can potentially reach base contact with an enemy after making a Charge move, then if the formation wishes to undertake any action other than Engage, it will do so with a -1 modifier to its initiative rating.

Note that this rule does not affect transport aircraft that are carrying Frenzied units.


COMBAT SPECIALISTS
Quote:
If a formation has at least one unit with the Combat Specialists ability that can potentially reach base contact with an enemy after making a Charge move, then the formation may perform an Engage action with a +1 modifier to the initiative roll.

Note that this rule does not affect transport aircraft that are carrying Combat Specialists units.



I'd be looking to give the Frenzied note to the following BA units:
- Assault Marines
- Tactical Marines
- Devastator Marines
- Bike units
- Dreadnought units
- Scout units
- Terminator units
- Death Company

And I might look to give the Combat Specialists note to the Death Company.

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 Post subject: Re: Consolidating Blood Rage and Red Thirst
PostPosted: Thu Oct 28, 2010 11:10 pm 
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Hmm better wording perhabs?

FRENZIED
Quote:
A formation will suffer a -1 penalty to it's Initiative if any unit with the Frenzied ability in the formation could reach base contact with an enemy unit during a charge move. The formation doesn't suffer this penalty if it whishes to perform an Engage action.
Note that this rule does not affect transport aircraft that are carrying Frenzied units.


MELEE SPECIALISTS
Quote:
If performing an Engage action a formation will gain a +1 modifer to it's Initiative if any unit with the Melle Specialists ability in the formation could reach base contact with an enemy unit during the charge move.
Note that this rule does not affect transport aircraft that are carrying Melee Specialists units.


The nice thing is that both abilities could be combined (the Death Company for example).

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 Post subject: Re: Consolidating Blood Rage and Red Thirst
PostPosted: Thu Oct 28, 2010 11:51 pm 
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That's not shortened wording. This is shortened wording.

Code:
If a formation contains any Frenzied units, and any of those units could reach base-to-base contact with an enemy unit in a Charge move, then the formation receives a -1 penalty to all actions but Engage.  Note that this rule does not affect transport aircraft that are carrying Frenzied units. 


I'd also recommend adding a blast marker for each Frenzied unit that could reach B2B and doesn't, but that's me.

I'd also recommend renaming Melee Specialists to "Close-Quarters Specialists". Both makes it a little more flexible and means that people who use it to make engagements easier and never move into B2B don't have to feel quite as bad about their unrelenting gaminess. :P

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 Post subject: Re: Consolidating Blood Rage and Red Thirst
PostPosted: Thu Oct 28, 2010 11:55 pm 
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I'd also recommend renaming Melee Specialists to "Close-Quarters Specialists".

And I'd recommend renaming it to something that's short enough to fit in the notes of a unit's datafax & on reference sheets.

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 Post subject: Re: Consolidating Blood Rage and Red Thirst
PostPosted: Fri Oct 29, 2010 12:16 am 
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Actually I'd prefer to call combat specialist - bloodthirsty. One word please - it's just easier.


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 Post subject: Re: Consolidating Blood Rage and Red Thirst
PostPosted: Fri Oct 29, 2010 12:45 am 
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Battelust? Or to slaaneshy? :D

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 Post subject: Re: Consolidating Blood Rage and Red Thirst
PostPosted: Fri Oct 29, 2010 2:38 am 
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OK, if this is going to work, the rule needs to be short(er) and easy to understand. Let me give it a go:

(disclaimer: I am using the names for the example only. I am not proposing any names as yet. )


Quote:
Formations that have a Aggressive unit who can reach base contact with an enemy, receive a -1 modifier to their initiative roll if they decide to perform any other action other than an Engage action.



Quote:
Formations that have a Bloodthirsty unit who can reach base contact with an enemy, receive a +1 modifier to their initiative roll if they decide to perform an Engage action.



I do like the following names however:
- Hosile
- Volatile
- Aggressive
- Bloodthirsty

:)

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 Post subject: Re: Consolidating Blood Rage and Red Thirst
PostPosted: Fri Oct 29, 2010 12:32 pm 
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Quote:
Formations that have a Aggressive unit who can reach base contact with an enemy, receive a -1 modifier to their initiative roll if they decide to perform any other action other than an Engage action.

You've removed the stipulation that the rule does not apply to transport aircraft. Why?

You've removed the stipulation of reaching base contact "in a charge move", potentially introducing ambiguity for rules lawyers.

Units should be referred to impersonally, "which" instead of "who", "its" instead of "they", etc.

"Recieve" should more correctly be "apply".

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 Post subject: Re: Consolidating Blood Rage and Red Thirst
PostPosted: Fri Oct 29, 2010 12:42 pm 
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Evil and Chaos wrote:
You've removed the stipulation that the rule does not apply to transport aircraft. Why?


Because I was concentrating on the first line and forgot the other stipulation. Not really something to make an Inquisition about.

Quote:
You've removed the stipulation of reaching base contact "in a charge move", potentially introducing ambiguity for rules lawyers.


The formation that is given it should naturally be a CC unit. If not, then I would ask why not. Why force a player to move into BtB? Leave it up to the player. An Engage move is an Engage move no matter how it is performed. We should not be stipulating how a player is to move their troops. That is not Epic - that is another gaming system. Why the drama?

Quote:
Units should be referred to impersonally, "which" instead of "who", "its" instead of "they", etc. "Recieve" should more correctly be "apply".


Whatever works. Nothing to stop people re-writing it...

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