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Consolidating Blood Rage and Red Thirst

 Post subject: Re: Consolidating Blood Rage and Red Thirst
PostPosted: Thu Oct 28, 2010 9:53 am 
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If nor "Rage" then "Frenzy" is favoured by me.

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 Post subject: Re: Consolidating Blood Rage and Red Thirst
PostPosted: Thu Oct 28, 2010 10:22 am 
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Rug wrote:
B) WE are already very powerful in base to base engages and this is reflected in their stats, do they need the +1 bonus to engage. I'd be happier just seeing the minus 1 for not. Auto engaging is very powerful and will simply lead to lists designed to take advantage of the rule whilst never suffering from it. +1 to engage if in range could easily be a second special rule only used for special cases (death company etc).


I am not going to go into all this again.

My only advise is play the list a few times (not just once or twice) and then make the same judgement call. You will find that it is far less "powerful" that what you are making out. Especially since the removal of Indomitable and Fearless characters.

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 Post subject: Re: Consolidating Blood Rage and Red Thirst
PostPosted: Thu Oct 28, 2010 10:57 am 
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I am not going to go into all this again.

You really should, if you want to convince us that the BA should use this rule too.

After all, all else being equal this rule would give the Blood Angels a 0+ Initiative rating to Engage the enemy...

I did consider that, let's say the rule ends up being called "Frenzy", that it could be used in the notes, so that any formation that contains at least one unit with the Frenzy Ability would be affected. This could mean that some units could not be affected by it, either in these lists, or in future lists that wished to make use of the Frenzy Ability (It's good to leave options open for future list developers).

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 Post subject: Re: Consolidating Blood Rage and Red Thirst
PostPosted: Thu Oct 28, 2010 11:00 am 
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Rug wrote:
If the rule is going to be a standard one added to the game some mechanism to NOT make it army wide needs to be devised for future use.

Agreed, mechanism proposed for that above.

Rug wrote:
B) WE are already very powerful in base to base engages and this is reflected in their stats, do they need the +1 bonus to engage. I'd be happier just seeing the minus 1 for not. Auto engaging is very powerful and will simply lead to lists designed to take advantage of the rule whilst never suffering from it. +1 to engage if in range could easily be a second special rule only used for special cases (death company etc).

Agreed, it may lead to armies of Blood Angels composed solely of Assault Marines with 0+ Initiative ratings... not entirely out of character admittedly but certainly quite one dimentional and boring.

Rug wrote:
C) if a loaded Rhino is 34cm away from b2b contact with an enemy is the rule used or not?

Going by the wording of the rule I would assume yes.

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 Post subject: Re: Consolidating Blood Rage and Red Thirst
PostPosted: Thu Oct 28, 2010 12:40 pm 
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It would be far easier to slide into the BA list (without making list changes) if the "Frenzy etc" rule as is is split into two separate rules, WE could have both and this would have no effect on your list.

Ah, so a "Frenzy" rule that gives you -1 to your initiative if within CC range of the enemy (Unless you Engage).
And also a "Blood Rage" rule that gives World Eaters +1 initiative when Engaging.

That could work.

Quote:
Also, how does the rule work with air assaults, and landing and shooting?

Hmmm, could say that it does still apply, effectively giving Thunderhawks and Landing Craft Initiative 2+ unless Engaging.

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 Post subject: Re: Consolidating Blood Rage and Red Thirst
PostPosted: Thu Oct 28, 2010 1:06 pm 
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Just a quick thought; I think "Frenzied" would be better than "Frenzy", just because most of the standard special rules are adjectives.


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 Post subject: Re: Consolidating Blood Rage and Red Thirst
PostPosted: Thu Oct 28, 2010 2:07 pm 
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Please do not forget that the game is won through objectives, not through a successful assault. Rather than just see the benefits of the rule (there is only one mind you), start looking at the negative aspects to really appreciate how it fits into a list.

It is turn 3 and you have to make a run to either secure or contest an objective. An Opposition General worth his salt may just place a unit within charge range of one or even two formations. Follow that up with shooting to place BM on the formation(s) and the WoE/BA player automatically has a -2 init to do anything other than Engage. This could easily cost the player the game. This is further strained with the fact that WoE Daemon Engines start with a 2+ Init!

It is not so much about what they gain, yet rather what is at risk. While the player has to manage the rule to their advantage, the opposing player should find ways to use it to their advantage.

Unsure about BA as they have ATSKNF, however WoE really suffer with BM. No matter how much I say it, no-one listens. Trying to Marshall with BM with an enemy in range can be a real hassle - especially when you are 1 or 2 BM off being broken and they still have such formations as an air force. Increase this risk with the fact that WoE have little in Air Defence, and you start to see a real issue with running the army. I have literally had to find ways to drop points just to make the list even remotely competative, and with the latest revision, I am still wary as to whether it is.

I believe the rule is indicative of the WoE feel. They are meant to charge. They are known for it. To complain that they do it well just makes me bang my head on the table yet again.

Seriously, if people do not like it and think it would be overpowered, please go read the 20+ battle reports I wrote up and all the discussion lists from the past 18 months. If anything, it is a list that has come through development and stayed in the face of the forums consistently. Rather than defend it from now on, I will just continue as I always have. I opened this thread not to defend the WoE yet rather to consolidate a rule between the BA and WoE.

E&C (as the BA AC) stated he liked the rule and would adopt it, so that is good enough for me. So just name the skill and lets get on with it.

As for the other discussions on how the rule is implemented, I will come back to that. I know I tackled it previously. I am tired at present so I am going to bed. Zzzzz

Cheers all.

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 Post subject: Re: Consolidating Blood Rage and Red Thirst
PostPosted: Thu Oct 28, 2010 3:04 pm 
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Quote:
E&C (as the BA AC) stated he liked the rule and would adopt it, so that is good enough for me. So just name the skill and lets get on with it.

Actually I said I'd adopt it, unless someone came up with some objections.
Rug's rasied some very good objections

This is, incidentally, how I develop all my army lists, via consensus building and consultation, and this community-led process has generated some of the most popular and balanced Epic army lists out there.

You shouldn't try to bulldoze over some very important concerns because of any impact it may have on the World Eaters NetEA army list. The good of the many outweighs the good of the few, to quote a guy with pointy ears.

1 -
The rule should be modified so that it can serve as a "one size fits all" rule for these, and also future lists.

2 -
The rule should also be modified so that it doesn't cause problems with other armies that don't have a 2+ initiative rating. Granting a 0+ initiative rating to initiative 1+ armies is not going to be acceptable.

Those two changes are compromises on your behalf that I'm requesting.

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Last edited by Evil and Chaos on Thu Oct 28, 2010 3:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Consolidating Blood Rage and Red Thirst
PostPosted: Thu Oct 28, 2010 3:25 pm 
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Is there a half way possible, ie splitting "frenzy" as is into two rules... "frenzy" (-1 to non engage actions in b2b range) & "combat specialist" (+1 to engage actions).

Ironically, this does result in two different special rules, to replace the two lists' current special rules, but at least these would be generic rules that could be used by future lists.

Quote:
there isn't much point going further if the rule is totally inflexible.

Agreed.

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 Post subject: Re: Consolidating Blood Rage and Red Thirst
PostPosted: Thu Oct 28, 2010 3:41 pm 
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frogbear wrote:
It is turn 3 and you have to make a run to either secure or contest an objective. An Opposition General worth his salt may just place a unit within charge range of one or even two formations.

Using an activation to attempt to block an activation during an objective grab is a non-issue. It's probably a net loss for the blocker, so unless there's already a substantial activation advantage it's a bad idea. If there is a substantial activation advantage during an objective grab, the game is probably over anyway. It's pretty much a last resort move, where a formation simply can't do anything better.

I still see it as a net benefit, the value of which will be pretty dependent on the context of the army. That's fine. How much it helps or hinders can be managed with point costs in the individual lists.

However... a real problem I see is that the "-1 in range" allows a gamey tactic - use a broken formation's withdrawal move to bait a formation. That causes the hindrance without using up a precious objective grab activation. Broken formations become useful as sacrificial pawns. That's something I don't really like.

On the whole, I still favor it over the BA rule and I'd like to see it tested to fine out if broken formation bait is a problem in actual play.

===

Quote:
The rule should also be modified so that it doesn't cause problems with other armies that don't have a 2+ initiative rating. Granting a 0+ initiative rating to initiative 1+ armies is not going to be acceptable.

I don't know that this is all that bad. A 0+ initiative on a single kind of action in a single circumstance probably isn't something that most people would consider to be especially unfair. It's a strong power, for sure, but as I noted how much of a real advantage it is will vary by list. If something has a powerful combination that guarantees this advantage is substantially greater than the drawbacks (like high SR Terminators that can teleport and auto-Engage) then they are made more expensive.

===

Air assaults - Personally, I'd say the rule shouldn't count for aircraft. No other "check range" abilities work with aircraft or off-board units.

If you count it, it's going to be automatic, which will necessarily require an increase in air transport costs.

Also, it's not an "Engage" action for aircraft. It's "ground attack" and that covers both air assaults and strafing runs. So, that's another exception to split it up and not give them automatic strafing. I suppose you can do that, as it's a special rule and all, but if there's not a pressing need, KISS.

===

Side note: This is an ability which affects a formation, not an individual weapon or unit. If the goal is a generic ability, we need to address how it is designated and applied.


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 Post subject: Re: Consolidating Blood Rage and Red Thirst
PostPosted: Thu Oct 28, 2010 3:46 pm 
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Quote:
Side note: This is an ability which affects a formation, not an individual weapon or unit. If the goal is a generic ability, we need to address how it is designated and applied.

The easiest way would probably be to follow what Zombocom did with the Sisters of Battle and their Pray ability.

Meaning that if a unit in a formation has the Frenzied special ability in its notes, then the entire formation is considered to be Frenzied.

Quote:
A 0+ initiative on a single kind of action in a single circumstance probably isn't something that most people would consider to be especially unfair.

I think you could build an army mostly out of ground-based assault marine formations (Which are 6 strong in the BA list) that will pretty much never fail to retain the initiative with multiple waves of Engage actions on turns 2 and 3.

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 Post subject: Re: Consolidating Blood Rage and Red Thirst
PostPosted: Thu Oct 28, 2010 4:23 pm 
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Evil and Chaos wrote:
Quote:
A 0+ initiative on a single kind of action in a single circumstance probably isn't something that most people would consider to be especially unfair.

I think you could build an army mostly out of ground-based assault marine formations (Which are 6 strong in the BA list) that will pretty much never fail to retain the initiative with multiple waves of Engage actions on turns 2 and 3.

I'd say try it. I don't think it's going to be that easy to make it work. It's really the deepstrike/CC combos that will be the problem factor.


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 Post subject: Re: Consolidating Blood Rage and Red Thirst
PostPosted: Thu Oct 28, 2010 9:28 pm 
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Rug wrote:
Frog, am I correct that the rule is not open to alteration, the same for the WE list?


Not at all. I am just not entertaining the whole "World Eaters get to charge really well" debate. If we need to make the rule usable throughout various lists that is fine,. I just do not wish to get sidetracked from that goal, that's all.

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