Considering IF armies are likely to have minefields most of the time, this sounds like an eminently sensible change.

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A good place to look is at the two official Marine lists that GW put out, The "Pure Codex" list, and the White Scars list.

The White Scars, who are a variant Chapter who are partially divergent from the Codex.

The extent of their difference at Epic scale is:
No Land Raiders, No Devastators, No big Titans, and a bigger Bike formation (With Walker).

The Imperial Fists are almost as Codex-adherent as the Ultramarines themselves, so you wouldn't expect them to be changing formation compositions etc. IMO.

They should just have a couple of extra bits of kit specialised for Siege warfare (Fortifications, Thunderfire, siege Land Raider, siege Dreadnought), and some formation size modifications for a few siege-type formations like artillery and Vindicators.

What they shouldn't be doing is mixing up formation compositions in a wild manner. I'm already leery of the Dreadnought formation in fact...


Honour Guards are allowed in the Codex.

The Codex specifies 1000 men in battle squads, plus command ranks, not 1000 men total.

Total strength of a Codex Chapter is probably more like 1100-1200 once you add on the various commanders, their command squads, the high command, the librarius, the chaplains, the techmarines, etc.

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Frogbear:



Have the Codex troop types, IMO, which can be combined in a fashion that produces a Battle Company.



Honestly, I don't see why not. The only reason it might not be appropriate is because (if you multiply it out), it's impossible to make a Codex Battle Company with that formation - you end up with too few Tacticals or too few Devastators.



Er...they are Codex. The most Codex, in fact. Except the other Chapters that are most Codex. It's confused.



The Codex is a spectrum more than an absolute. Especially since people rewrite the damn thing (the Ultramarines rewrote the Codex to include Tyrannic War Veterans).



Codices vary from copy to copy. So, really, it's in whether or not the Chapter (and other Chapters) think they're Codex, and in their attitude toward the Codex.



Honestly, I doubt it.



As E&C said, the Honor Guard aren't necessarily a problem. Having more Honor Guard than anyone else might be.

Changing the Codex to include Tyrannic War Veterans, OTOH...that could be an issue.

Honestly, the Ultramarines background in relation to other Chapters is mostly insane Mary-Suedom, and the more you ignore, the better you can feel.

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I'd disagree. The Codex formation is a general list - it represents how most battles are conducted. In a specialized situation, I might expect formation compositions to change.



Why? Two or three Ultramarines companies have enough Dreadnoughts to deploy Dreadnought formations.

As long as the formation composition makes logical sense, is moderately flexible and uses the resources typically available to a Codex Chapter (specifically a Battle Company), what's wrong with some variation?



TEC on the B&C once worked it out to be close to 1500, IIRC.

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Yes! And here I thought I was alone in this belief.

I added it purely because I thought it was an expectation. I am more than happy to take it out as, although it may be useful, in really bends my belief of these existing as a formation for such a list. I have always seen dreads as a support unit, not one for their own formation.

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Pretty sure they were including vehicle crews on top of the 1000 troops, when they are actually supposed to be drawn from the Tactical Companies.


My personal thought is that Dreadnought formations should be saved for an Iron Hands list.

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I'm not sure that's true, honestly. The depiction of Brother-Sergeant Chronus in the most recent Codex has him listed as "Brother-Sergeant of the Ultramarines Armoury", his assignment is described as a "transition", and he apparently has command over almost fifty Marines and answers only to Calgar. Throughout the book, crews are described as "experienced" or the like.

I mean, maybe a full quarter of the Chapter's Tactical Reserve strength is serving in vehicles at any one time, but it'd seem a bit much...

I haven't seen the issue directly addressed, at least not that I can recall.



"Sergeants will often wear Terminator armour that is rumoured to be physically bonded to them, and it is not uncommon for battle forces to be led by Dreadnoughts. The inspiration which their presence causes amongst the Iron Hands proves to be of more benefit when acting within these roles." - IA: IH

Dreadnought formations would actually seem to be more likely to be spaced out throughout formations in an Iron Hands army, rather than less. There's also the point of the Ancients Assault Force Apocalypse formation. And an interesting quote from C:SM 5e: "Many assaults commence with a wave of Dreadnoughts to drive a wedge through the enemy's defenses." Plus, the Ultramarines 4th Company maintains enough Dreadnoughts to deploy them as a formation.

That, and their limited utility as a support unit in Epic makes a formation quite sensible.

They're not out of place in a Codex army. A little odd, but not out of place.

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My personal thought is that Dreadnought formations should be saved for an Iron Hands list.[/quote]

I agree with E/C on the thought of Dreadnought formations. It's not that they can't be done, but it's not really a common thing either. Pretty much in times of desperation, like the defense of hades gate (?) during the 2nd or 3rd War for Armageddon. (Sorry my Armageddon history is weak)

Amen to that brother!

On Epic level there is not thing as "Codex" which restricts formation composition.
The Codex Astartes specifies which forces should be used in which combination for every possible tactical challenge.
Whis this explanation your Epic army list can look as you wish. If a Defensive Position demands that you have to mix Tactical Marines and Devastators in one tactical body (a Detachment) then it is probably written in the Codex Astartes in exactly this way in the chapter about siege warfare

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On the other hand, if it doesn't achieve anything for the playstyle of the army, don't bother fixing what ain't broken.

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As was found out with the IG siege list (scout ZofC forcing them through razorwire .TRC wanted only the Sappers to have walker), opponents will use scouts to force the defenders through those minefields.

It will be less of a problem for IF as there initiative rolls are better than IG but on that odd occasion that they are in the ZofC of an enemy scout, have a BM, roll a 1 and "HAVE" to move directly through the minefields "THEY" have laid, you'll be grateful fort that re-roll.

Codex: According to the background, the Codex is the repository of all strategic and tactical doctrine of the Space Marines. It's supposed to cover everything from orbital sieges and trench warfare spanning continents to guerrilla warfare and assassination strikes. So, to that extent, there should be nearly no limit to what is "Codex".

What "Codex" means in practical terms is a adherence to a core set of general-purpose organizational principals. Battle companies, a few specialty companies of each type. Deployment of discreet Tac, Dev and Assault detachments. Specialist units (armor, terminators, etc.) used in limited numbers in support roles. Lots of other implied restrictions that add up to a "normal" SM organization in keeping with the background.

"Non-Codex" generally means either the Chapter has their own repository of strategic and tactical doctrine (e.g. Space Wolves) or that they choose their default organization to be different from the suggested all-purpose Codex TO (e.g. White Scars' Bike Companies).

To a lesser extent, it can refer to chapters that generally follow Codex organizational principals but which rely on less "mainstream" strategies and tactics (e.g. Raven Guard's emphasis on infiltration and guerrilla operations).

I will keep this quote in mind as the focus for any ideas. It's quite sensible.

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Devastators 225
Devastators 225
Firebase 50
Firebase 50
Scouts 200
Scouts 200
tarantulas 150
tarantulas 150
Assaults+chaplain 225
Assaults+chaplain 225
thunderbolts 150
thunderbolts 150
tacticals+2 LRC+SC+hunter 600
terminators+chaplain 400

Basic plan - tarantulas act as blitzguard on OW at earliest opportunity, firebases on other objectives with devastators garrisonned inside on OW scouts garrisonned around them. Assault marines+tacticals act as mobile reserve moving up to support firebases. Terminators go after warhounds, artillery or act as anti-terminators defence.

Thoughts while putting list together-
Thunderfire upgrade seems overpriced at 75
Is it intentional that tarantula formation can't fit in a firebase?
Main issue seems to be lack of speed - even siegemasters get some fast formations, and I'm not sure it fits with gameplay (need some speed to grab objectives) or siege theme( need some speed to make forays forward to disrupt attacking force).

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Just some quick ones. Firstly, thanks for coming back with a list Steve


Already in the fix. AV and LV will be able to use them.


I have a consideration to include speeders so they may fill this area. Still working on this however if it is a weakness, I would not wish to close it off entirely.

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