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Imperial Fists - what is so different?

 Post subject: Re: Imperial Fists - what is so different?
PostPosted: Thu Sep 30, 2010 11:56 pm 
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I like the idea of IF leading a Siege or Defense with supported IG companies. Like in Storm Of Iron but with more marines. Like 50/50 split of IF and IG. Also it would be awesome to see IF and Iron Warriors in the Epic:Nemesis Supplement.


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 Post subject: Re: Imperial Fists - what is so different?
PostPosted: Fri Oct 01, 2010 12:20 am 
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I always picture IFs either building/defending adamantium/near-impenatrable curtain walls and making every avenue of approach a death trap. So, with that in mind....

Brainstorm ideas/no real thought on mechanics- quickly expanding an idea that Ragnarok gave me from his above post...

Imperial Fists "Always defender" rule?

You could look at buying particular formations of Marines with their earthworks/bunkers/trenches as part of the one formation and they stalwartly defend that position until wiped out /no retreat etc??

An infantry bunker gets bought as a "complex" (3 bunker/defensive points) so it comes with really hard to kill support bunkers that lend nasty support/crossfire that needs destroying as you can't break it? So you should isolate/destroy the support bunker before you assault the infantry etc

A special rule - IFs defensive positions can claim crossfires in different ways than normal?

Invulnerable saves/void shielding for defensive positions?

A special rule either giving them bonuses to holding a position?? To really make them difficult to dig out.

Defensive positions manned by Imp Fists and armed with Marine-specific weaponry? Flame Storm cannons, Thunderfire cannons. Make up new siege weapons?

0-move Pop-up(teleport) sentry guns like the old Tau sentry towers?

I truly think the Imperial Fists would pack defensive gear beyond what 40K stipulates.

Anyway, obviously these ideas could need expanding/toning down some :)


Last edited by Dobbsy on Fri Oct 01, 2010 12:23 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Imperial Fists - what is so different?
PostPosted: Fri Oct 01, 2010 12:22 am 
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Also it would be awesome to see IF and Iron Warriors in the Epic:Nemesis Supplement.


Do people realise this 'opposing forces' debate was just that - an angry debate around a table?

Was there ever a historic large battle recorded where both legions actually opposed each other? If there was, then I have obviously missed it. Storm of Iron had the Jouran Dragoons as antagonists.

Then again, I guess one could be created :P

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Last edited by frogbear on Fri Oct 01, 2010 12:27 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Imperial Fists - what is so different?
PostPosted: Fri Oct 01, 2010 12:25 am 
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The use of Cross fire or even a type of void shielding rule to represent the bunker is a pretty neat idea there Dobbsy.

Again, some interesting things to consider... :)

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 Post subject: Re: Imperial Fists - what is so different?
PostPosted: Fri Oct 01, 2010 12:27 am 
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Do people realise this 'opposing forces' debate was just that - an angry debate around a table?


Maybe so, but it seems that has built up over there years, plus I'm sure in the Hours Heresy series there will be a IF VS IW Battle now... ::)


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 Post subject: Re: Imperial Fists - what is so different?
PostPosted: Fri Oct 01, 2010 12:29 am 
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Angel_of_Caliban wrote:
Quote:
Do people realise this 'opposing forces' debate was just that - an angry debate around a table?


Maybe so, but it seems that has built up over there years, plus I'm sure in the Hours Heresy series there will be a IF VS IW Battle now... ::)


*sigh* I really wish Angron would get some lovin'. Some cut scenes and a short story are just not doing it for me...

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 Post subject: Re: Imperial Fists - what is so different?
PostPosted: Fri Oct 01, 2010 7:35 am 
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The IFs fought the IWs after the siege of Terra at the Iron cage but the IW's were on the defence. It ended quite badly for the fists.


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 Post subject: Re: Imperial Fists - what is so different?
PostPosted: Fri Oct 01, 2010 7:52 am 
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Hmm. Looks like some study is in order. Thank you Captn. S :)

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 Post subject: Re: Imperial Fists - what is so different?
PostPosted: Fri Oct 01, 2010 9:48 am 
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frogbear wrote:
Was there ever a historic large battle recorded where both legions actually opposed each other? If there was, then I have obviously missed it. Storm of Iron had the Jouran Dragoons as antagonists.

Then again, I guess one could be created :P

Oh yes! Battle of Terra. The Iron Cage (whre both Legions got pretty much mauled but both claimed victory).
Hydra Cordatus (from the Storm of Iron novel) had only one Company of Imperial Fists in the defender role but they where present non the less.

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 Post subject: Re: Imperial Fists - what is so different?
PostPosted: Fri Oct 01, 2010 3:54 pm 
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Marine - Defender Siege List
Core
- Tacticals + Transports (able to swap the transports out for Land Raiders, Preds or Vindactors)
- Devs + Transports (able to swap the transports out for Land Raiders, Preds or Vindactors)
- Trenchworks
- Vidicators - formation of 4-6
- Whirlwinds - formation of 4-6
- Dreadnought formations - 4 - 6


Foot Assault Marines + Transports are an obvious point for inclusion. Great for charging those breaches!

Quote:
Restricted Formations
- Terminators
- Assault Marines (?)


I'd stick Land Speeders in here - they make some sense, but they shouldn't be common as dirt, either.

Quote:
Upgrades
- Dreads (Siege or Normal)
- Land Raiders - only taken as replacements for transports
- Predators - only taken as replacements for transports
- Vindicators - only taken as replacements for transports
- Thunderfire Cannons - add to the formation (probably 1-2)
- Characters
- Hunters (1-2)


I'd keep the Vindicators as a separate upgrade - formations with attached Vindicators and transports make sense for assaulting breaches and that sort of thing.

I'd also recommend adding a Whirlwind upgrade. That way the Vindicator, Whirlwind and Dread formations can just use the vehicle upgrade to increase their size.

Oh, one more point - if you make it so Land Raiders can only replace transports, people are likely going to completely avoid the standard LR in favor of the LRC.

Quote:
Allies
I like the idea of just having Imperial Bombers, a Reaver and a Warlord as the accessible options. Otherwise standard options available to Marines.


I'd recommend the Bombing variant of the Thunderhawk, as well.

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 Post subject: Re: Imperial Fists - what is so different?
PostPosted: Fri Oct 01, 2010 3:56 pm 
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I'd consider only allowing Land Speeder Typhoons.

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 Post subject: Re: Imperial Fists - what is so different?
PostPosted: Sat Oct 02, 2010 12:22 am 
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That's a nice idea E&C <nod>

Ya know the more I think about the defensive idea the more I think maybe I'll make another marine list :D

I've been contemplating making one army for each of the great chapters! :D


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 Post subject: Re: Imperial Fists - what is so different?
PostPosted: Sat Oct 02, 2010 1:15 am 
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There was the idea to swap the transport for trenchworks as the standard.

I have shied away from this because at the end of the day, I want to create the Imperial Fists list, and not a faceless Marine Siege List. So I do want to get back to the Imperial Fists and 'pad out' the differences that would show a different list.

The main concerns I have are with all the options that have been talked about, not making the formations too large. I would think 12 would be the upper limit I would want to see for units in a formation with ATSKNF within the Imperial Fists. If an example is 6 Tacticals, 3 Vindicators, 1 hunter and 2 whirlwinds, then I guess that is fine by me - that was just an example, please do not quote as standard.

I think the Terminators should all be the Thunderhammer/Stormshield variation and possibly kept to small numbers of 4 bases (maybe 5) as I would like these to be used for surgical strikes rather than the hammer of oppression.

I will just need to find a system to encourage trench works and bunkers over transports within the force, and I would like the force itself to stick with their own iconic vehicles rather than having a swathe of choices (so which Landraider?, which Predator) and I would also like to encourage Dreadnoughts. So do you think that such restriction is necessary?

I am not too fond of allowing Thunderhawk transports as I want to divorce the list away from the vanilla Marine tactics.

I am open to the Saturation bomber, air craft and even orbital support and drop pods (if required).

I have to also consider support weapons and how they will be a viable option for the Imperial Fists.

So many things to consider. The goal however has to be that the playability is not replicated in the standard Marine list - because if it is, then there is no point to such a list.

I may start work on this as early as tomorrow.

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 Post subject: Re: Imperial Fists - what is so different?
PostPosted: Sun Oct 03, 2010 5:03 pm 
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frogbear wrote:
Good points ragnorak
Much of what you have in the 2nd part of the post is very good. I hope you don't mind if I consider some of those for any list I throw out there?


No problems. That is why suggested it. So someone with the time can use them.


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 Post subject: Re: Imperial Fists - what is so different?
PostPosted: Sun Oct 03, 2010 5:24 pm 
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I had the idea that the Imperial Fists player could usea special rule that allows him to combine two formations into one formation after seeing the opponents army but before set up.
This would represent to bulk up numbers at strongpoints for a better defence.

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