Death Wheel WE 30cm 4+ 5+ 3+
2x Reaper Autocannon 30cm AP4+/AT6+, Left Arc
2x Reaper Autocannon 30cm AP4+/AT6+, Right Arc
Battle Cannon 75 cm AP4+/AT4+, Left Arc
Battle Cannon 75 cm AP4+/AT4+, Right Arc
NOTES DC4, 2 Void Shields, Reinforced Armour, Fearless.
Critical Hit Effect: The Death Wheel’s gyroscopic stabiliser is damaged. The Death Wheel rolls 3D6cm in a random direction (stopping if it
contacts impassable terrain or another war engine) inflicting a hit on any unit run over or into, and then tips over and is destroyed

Compared to a Warhound at same cost

War Engine 30cm 5+ 4+ 4+
Weapon Range Firepower Notes
Vulcan Mega-Bolter 45cm 4 x AP3+/AT5+ Forward Arc
Plasma Blastgun 45cm 2 x MW2+ Slow Firing, Forward Arc

Damage Capacity 3. 2 Void Shields. Critical Hit Effect: The Warhound is caught off-balance and
staggers. Move it D6cm in a random direction. Notes: Fearless, Reinforced Armour, Walker. May step over units and impassable or dangerous terrain
that is lower than the Titan’s knees and up to 2cm wide. The plasma blastgun may either fire one shot
and still have one shot ‘in reserve’ for next turn, or fire two shots and not shoot next turn at all.

What's the rationale for having the DW the same price? The DW is far more effective.

The weaponry slightly favours the Warhound, the Critical favours the Warhound, and the assault characteristics fairly favour the Deathwheel. Defensively, the Warhound is better, offensively, the Death Wheel.

You forgot to include the Walker on the Warhound. The ability to keep to cover for little risk is a fairly significant bonus.

I consider it a fair wash. It's definitely within the rounding factor. Remember, Warhounds were only just rounded up relatively recently, and DeathWheels haven't been proven abusable since they are now out of "War Engines" percentage.
Morgan Vening

Not sure how the Warhound is defensively better. Deathwheel 4+RA 4DC plus 2 Shields...Warhound 5+RA 3DC 2 Shields. Deathwheels put damage on formations from 75cm away. That's a 135cm attack projection (Double + 75cm weapons) compared to 105cm attack projection for the Warhounds. On the assault the Deathwheel, is a clear winner. 4x 3+FF vs 3x4+FF. If anything, surely the Warhound is marginally better at CC at best (3x4+CC vs 4x5+CC).

The two things that favour the Warhound is the critical and the Walker ability, but how often do Warhounds hang out in terrain, hiding? Whenever I've seen them used they are turn 1 double, unload all guns. They then spend a turn firing only one weapon system albeit with a 45cm range. Let's face it, you pay to put damage on enemy formations not hide in terrain.

They can't be the same price, surely?

Steve54, can this issue be looked at or is it locked up with no recourse?

I'm not sure the "out of war engines" scenario is an issue as I don't ever recall Black Legion taking many Titans as it is. It's a no brainer to buy 2 of these for 550.

It's not an issue. What you missed in Morgan's post is that defensively better is that the Warhound, when assaulted, is in a better position whether in CC or FF, where the Deathwheel can be locked to only CC if required by another War Engine.



They never used to be part of the War Engine section. Now they are and they have a restriction.

You also have to look at the firepower:

The 2x Plasma Blastgun is comparable to 4x Reaper Autocannon. The very easy hitting MW is far more effective
Then it is down to the Vulcan Megabolter which is comparable to the Battle Cannons

So already the firepower is a pip up. I just think a full look over and consideration is required before stating that this unit is an issue that needs to be looked at.

This usually happens (I have done it - I admit) when you come across a unit for the first time. It's been around for at least a year that I know of and used extensively in tournaments - hence the reason it was placed in the War Engines section I believe.

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Oh I've played DWs before FB. In fact every time I'm ever played BL (barring one) the opposition brings 2

I get that they're different beasties but I didn't miss what he said. I just disagree with his view.

The thing is, the PBG only fires every other turn so it's not comparable to a 4x reapers. That's a drop of firepower every second turn. So across a game the DW puts out more when used correctly - as you did. The WH weaponry doesn't have better range (45cm vs 75cm). In truth the strength of the DW is up close where it hurts from shooting and then supports to a greater degree than a Warhound would. You used one for just that purpose last night.

It gets hurt less in return attacks as well due to its higher level of armour and DC and needs more BMs to break. These points alone concern me the most.

Look at it this way, would you have done the same amount of higher pipped FF attacks (in both shooting or assault support) last night if you'd had a WH? Would you have been able to hit my troops from across the board like you did? These are rhetorical questions as it's obvious.

Better yet, would you take a Warhound over the Deathwheel...?

I'm not worried about having the weapons changed here, just that in comparison to a Warhound the points don't really match in my mind. One or the other is incorrectly priced IMO - but it's just that - my opinion.

OK

If I had the Warhound for 25 points less and a SR of 5, then yes, I would take it over the Deathwheel.

Why?

- I lost very important assault chances due to a lower SR
- Where I wanted the Deathwheel to enter terrain to hit a formation on the other side with FF attacks (which I did not do), the Warhound would have done it with very little effort (as it was it's FF hits could only effect 1 model(?) in that instance
- The extra DC is offset by the lack of a critical on the Warhound - effectively I could have been more daring with him - remember, even one critical would have been sufficient
- With a 30cm move, a double and a 3+MW shot as apposed to even a single move 2xAT5+ shots (that can be saved) is preferable as the first I am almost guaranteed a kill with only using one shot.

They do have different roles to play in a force. You could start to tackle the discussion using IG with their SR of 2, however then you are not really comparing the apples with apples as they have some nasty artillery and war engines to boot themselves.

So yes, if I had the benefits of a Warhound over the Deathwheel, and I was going into a tournament, the MW, and the walker ability plus the 25 point saving in cost would all factor in my reasoning for taking two Warhounds over the Deathwheels or maybe taking one of each. They are pretty comparable.

I have not done the comparrison, but I think it is the Feral Titan that loses out to the Deathwheel for the same points. Work that one out...

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At the moment I'm not convinced that the DW needs changing.

With the list I've spent a long time deciding whether to take it, the feral or even no WEs. Which is indicative that they aren't a no-brainer choice. I've also never heard any complaints about the DW up to now.

I would far rather take a warhound even with both at SR4, the DW is a mix of long range firing and FF so you tend to be torn between long range potshots and using as it is best used - as a FF WE.

Even without arguing over roles+weapons the fatal critical+lack of walker more than compensate for an extra DC and 4+-5+RA/

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Your'e forgetting that the units are in different lists and it's what they bring to those lists that determine the points costs, not comparisons to units from other armies.

If they were in the same army list then I could understand players finding 1 better/more useful than the other for that list but the rolls they play/fill, especially the Warhound, are what make them (for me) equal in cost.

If you put the DW in a Codex Marine list would it be taken instead of the Warhound ? .
The alpha strike abilities of the Warhound would always be preferable for anti AA hunting (In a Codex Marine list) for me anyway.

In a Guard list I find the Warhounds are worth 275 not for its weaponry but simply because it gives the army a 1+ initiative unit.
I find that unit is invaluable in the later turns of a game for breaking small formations and speeding through/from cover to grab objectives as well as being a useful unit to retain with, compared to the initiatives of other formations in the list.

In the BL list the DW seems to have better firepower than the Feral but the effects that the 2 have on the enemy forces are what makes them equal.
How often do you see opponents spreading their forces because of the Ferals barrage weapon, thus allowing more favourable assault to be made.
With a DW the opposing forces can group up more making assaults a little harder to get right (clipping assaults are much harder to pull off).
Along with the Feral making safer use of terrain (this cancels some aspects of the better armour of the DW), for me I think they work out as equal value.

Much as I dislike the concept of the Death Wheel (I think it's pretty damn silly, and that's saying something, considering it's a game setting with sniper hobbits and wolf-riding genetically modified armoured vikings), as a unit it's fine.

It's absolutely brutal at shorter ranges, but in order to do any real damage it has to be at 30cm or preferably 15cm (Superb firefight stat). And that means it's vulnerable to counter-attack, moreso than a Warhound Titan (Which can stay at 45cm range, in cover). Combine that with a very harsh Critical Hit Effect, and it's just fine.

Of the non-Titan Chaos Marine War Engines, it's the Decimator that I'd look at as being too good for its points, not the Death Wheel.

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At 15cm move? Surely you jest my good man! It has to double to even hit anything (first turn if lucky) and it is usable usually only from the 2nd turn. It's so slow, that if out of position it is useless to take objectives on a turn 3, and is usually (and easily) outmaneuvered.

As a Blitz Guard perhaps, but my what a waste of potential.

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Nope, it's bloody brilliant.


Remember it's 225pts, just 25pts more than a Baneblade or Shadowsword, and yet it has many plus points over the two IG SHTs.

That you rate it as not worth taking at all is a surprise to me.

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Must agree with E&C here. I can never justify them in my lists, but then I play against them and they do nast things to my army. I think that the trick with them is to place them where the enemy wants to go and then shoot them up.

Now c'mon. I never did say that did I?

I have taken 1 in my tournament force for Heavy Bolter and I actually started with 2 when I built the list.

Is it that the Decimator is too good for it's points or is the Baneblade just a pile of turd for it's points? Are we looking at the right end of the puzzle for the future solution?

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I've used a decimator a fair amount in games and to be honest it normally spends a lot of time broken not doing much.

Well you did say "As a Blitz Guard perhaps, but my what a waste of potential."
Can't see how as I could interpret that any other way than you saying they're not worth taking.



NetEA/"true" stat Baneblades are lovely.

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