That's one of the reasons I chose them. Or, you can use Land Raiders for those that have old "old skool" Squats. It's not like consistency of size is a big thing across the Epic range. Mk1/2/3 Thunderhawks anyone?

Morgan Vening

Not to dredge up something old - but people telling you to be consistent with other lists need to be reminded of the frequent occasions where complaints are met with "so make your own list if you don't like X".

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Ok we fought a battle today and I wanted to get the information gleaned from up before I went to bed. Later, after some much needed sleep, I will put the army lists up. I want to get the info up now while it is still fresh in my head.

The Good news........................................
No matter how much I tried to bend, fold, and mutilate your list I could not find a way to effectively exploit the seeker/spotter rules. Low scale explotation, yes, but then all lists can do that and it is most often a 'one shot' success and meaningless. I then took it a step further and tried to push the limit to see just where it would become effective to do it. It was at 6,000 to 9,000 points so it is very safe to say the present orgainization of the army and those two rules are just fine. Actually I am very glad I couldn't exploit it

The Bad News.................................................................
Ok when you see my list two things are going to jump out at you; (1) It has 21xThudd Guns in two Arty Guilds; (2) It has NO transports. Remember I was trying to break the list on purpose here to see what was possible, and so was Rich my Ork opponent.

Massive Arty...................................................
Between the two Arty Guilds and the two Colossus I was able to set up a firing line that just devestated anything Rich was able to get near my defense line. No I had no Iron Hawks. Think of it this way with all of them on Sustained Fire there wasn't anything that was going to be able to take that much firepower in a single turn and survive. One Big Warband was all but vaporized in turn one, and the other two torn to pieces in turn two. In the first two turns of the battle I only moved the two Colossus into position and fired everything I could at the Orks. Basically I was able to create an army that only had to sit still to rip an opponent apart, and it worked. This is the type of army you said, and I fully agree, you do not want to see possible in Epic-A and in your list.

The 10cm Move...............................................
Ok, it goes like this, and Rich was able to do it again. Most weapons in Epic-A have a range of 30cms plus, the assault FF range of most units is 30cms (15cms+15cms). So most formations cannot sit at 30cms range and fire away with inpunity. Change the base move to 10cms, reducing the assault FF range to 25cms, and they can. Rich's Stompa Mob did just that to one of my Forger Guilds. Think of it this way most infantry have weapons withan AT of 6+ their ability to overcome most AVs is in assaults. Take that away from them and they must rely on somebody else to bail them out. That or they are forced to buy ttransports, which exposes them to possible extra losses if they are caught loaded and in LOS.

(Suggestion): You may want to consider moving the Arty Guilds into the Support Area to make it harder to create this type of army. The same as you have done for the Hearthguard and Hearth Cavalry.

(Suggestion): I really think you should look long and hard at the 10cm move, it is exploitable and can only be solved by forcing the Squat player to purchase transports.

Hope this helps and cheers
Jaldon

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That's what we found too. You can kind of do it at 4000, but given what your opponent then has access to, it's never been found to be over the top.


I'm curious what your opponent Rich took. And the amount of terrain in use. One thing I've found when playing with/against Orks, is lack of terrain REALLY affects how they play. Against a heavy shooting army, even more so. Did Rich try to exploit your apparent lack of speed with objective placement?


It is a concern. But it's a concern I've seen with every single Squat list produced. In most cases, the lack of Mounted makes them a lot more powerful. As for the numbers, 21 Thudd Guns should average ~12 kills against Orks in the open. In cover (touching vehicles), they should average ~8.5. In Ruins/Buildings, it's just over 5. For a minimum 600pt investment, I don't consider those numbers outside the norm. If I spent that amount on any other shooting formation, I'd expect about the same.

Counter-batteries (being Mounted, they only ever get a 6+ save), teleports, air-assaults crush Artillery Guilds. Late activating Biker formations tend to do the number on them too. Or at least force a choice of target in the following turn.


Then the Squats should be doing it in stages. Either active advancement (you stop at 30cm, I Advance to 20cm and fire. You now either need to Advance and retreat back to 30cm, Sustain and prepare for an assault, or Engage into Firefight range only. That Squat formations need support, I have no issue with. Much like the Tau and synergy, that Guilds would need to band together isn't a huge issue with me. Stompas SHOULD be a big problem for any shooting based army, given their cost, and their downsides.


Doesn't fit the background for the Dvergatal. And as I said earlier, has been used in almost every version of the Squat List so far. Demiurg v3 has them as Infantry at 33pts each. The French list as Infantry at 25pts each. The Thurgrimm list has them as Infantry at 17pts each (granted, only as an addition to 9BP Mole Mortars for 250). All of those are Core Formations for their respective lists too.

Mine average about 37pts and Mounted. It doesn't look like Rich took anything to deal with them. Which is fine, but when an opponent has the capacity to do so, the protection needed to stop them from just falling over themselves and dying, really effects the cost/effect.


I have looked long and hard at it. I didn't just choose to create and develop a 10cm Squat army because it was easy. I'm much too lazy to do that. I did it because 15cm just didn't "do it" for me. And while I respect your decision to disagree, I have had people try to exploit it against me (and I've done so to my opponents). So I counter-exploited. You want to attack me from 26-30cm away? You either bunch up in tightly packed ranks. That's what Goliaths and Doomsday Cannons are for. You want to spread out along a wider front, that's what a clipping attack from a Mechanist Guild is for. Neither option suitable? I withdraw 5cm, and put you outside assault range, forcing you to have to advance. It's an inherent weakness for a race that is pretty strong in shooting. And does fairly well in Assaults. I'd like to see how it holds up against blind-test armies. It's not difficult to exploit any army if you know you're facing it.

Morgan Vening

as soon as i can get a blasted game in i want to try your list Morgan. I do like some of the idea's you have presented though, i originally liked Overlords as bombers. I kinda feel that 10cm is kinda slow but this is my reasoning. Much like Warmaster(god i love that game), 15cm represents time passed as the infantry walk/run into positions. It takes time for any infantry to move including the swift eldar. I don't see new eldar lists with infantry that can run at 20cm with "fleet of foot"(though that would make inf assualts crazy fast). Can you imagine a squad of 8 howling banshee's and Scorpions assaulting at 35 cm? Not me.. that would be sick.
What i may do in my very tiny group of players down here is just make my own adjustment and give them 15 as a house rule.
By the way, how does the piercing shot rule work with the Cyclops? I may have missed it in the rules section(mind you a few extra rules doesen't make me run, I'm used to Net Epic and Battletech).

Squat Army
Arty Guild (12xThudd Guns) 450pts
Arty Guild (9xThud Guns) 350pts
Forger Guild (12xForgers) 350pts
Forger Guild (12xForgers) 350pts
Mechanics Guild (9xBikes) 350pts
Hearthguard (4xHearthguard) 200pts
2xColossus 450pts
Grand Warlord 50pts

Ork Horde
Big Warband (Standard) 350pts
Big Warband (Standard) 350pts
Big Warband (Standard) 350pts
Uge Blitz Brigade (12xGunwagonz) 350pts
Uge Blitz Brigade (12xGunwagonz) 350pts
Baby Blitz Brigade (3xGunwagonz Oddboy Zzapp Wagon) 200pts
Baby Blitz Brigade (3xGunwagonz Oddboy Zzapp Wagon) 200pts
Kult of Speed (8xWarbikes) 200pts
Stompa Mob (3xStompa, 12xDreads) 645pts



Standard GT rules 12xPieces drawn up randomly by my laptop. Terrain pieces sizes are also standard GT. In this case we got 6xWoods, 4xHills, 2xBuilding Areas



I get to place my Blitz, and I only need to cover one other T&H to prevent the Orks from getting two out of five objectives. Center place the Blitz with a less maneverable army and the point becomes moot as I will be able to cover one T&H no matter where he places them.

Simply put 8xForger stands alone can easily cover a frontage of 77cms, add a second formation of 8xForgers and they can cover 154cms. (Table is standard GT 180cmsx120cms) Each stand is 4cms long and each stand has a flank ZOC of 5cms, as each stand must be within 5cms of another stand this gives a single stand a frontage of 9cms (4cms the stand and 2.5cms on each flank). So 8xForger stands cover 77cms 8x9=72(+5cms for the open flank) total is 77cms.

Considering I was using Formations of 12xForgers covering a single T&H was not a problem to do and maintian decent depth in both formations. I could easily have covered both if I had wanted to.

There are two ways to play for a win in the GT scenario, one can either go for objectives or play for a draw and force a tie breaker. High Firepower armies can go for the tie breaker and win because they will often rip an enemy apart as they come in, and if the enemy stands there same thing still happens. The Mechanics Guild had one job, Hide until late in turn two, then dash thhrough a hole and into the enemy table half. Then spend turns three and four avoiding combat.



Sorry but these numbers are incorrect. 21xThud guns produce a hit ratio of 13.86 which should be rounded up to 14xHits. As the Thudd Guns are not using templates they can exceed the number of hits a formation using templates could achieve. This wipes out the 4xGrot unit screen and 9xBoyz (on average) leaving 3xBoyz and 4xNobz, which are immediately broken. So much for that group as a fighting formation. It isn't so much the hits produced and the saves then equated in to the formula, it is the potential single turn damage, as it pertains to the formation being fired upon, and the ability to also break said target formation.

I am no fool, and neither is Rich, I was playing for the tie breaker and used the terrain to my advantage picking the side of the table with the most open terrain so Rich had to cross open ground, dotted with hills, or stand his ground and just get blown apart. Also If Rich would have tried to cram his Boyz in the Woods or Buildings they would have been bunched up targets for the Colossus to then blow apart with their template weapons.

10cm move Quote


This situation you have created above assumes that I would still have the initiative to make that advance, Rich isn't that stupid and knows that is exactly what will happen with any army. He will tactically wait for the situation he wants to occur, as do all players. Ahh the game of chicken that we call the activation cycle, it is almost a game within a game in Epic-A, and makes for some very exciting and tense game play which I love.

Against tanks? This reduces the Forgers to a 7+ to hit while those Ork Gunwagonz over there are shooting at me with a 4+ to hit! Believe it or not but Orks can shoot and a 3+ to activate isn't that hard to get, you just have to have the guts to try, and Rich does. If I advanced I would saddle him with a single BM, he returns fire splatters about 4xStands and I inherit 5xBMs. He needs a 2+ to shed his single BM I need a 3+ just to get rid of just half of mine, and if I do succeed I still have 2xBMs (Only one active per the rules) to his zero. In the ensuing FF Assault I am handing the Ork player a 2+ resolution advantage before the first dice has been rolled, I am shooting it out with 12xGunwagonz at 5+ to hit with my 8xForgers at 5+ to hit. The Ork player almost can't lose!

Lets change the situation to a formation of 12xBuggies..................
Even just standing there and trying to shoot it out with those Buggies isn't going to get me anywhere as it becomes an even crap shoot, and that is a crap shoot where all of the initiative in the situation is in the Orks hands becasue I cannot advance on them (as shown above) and I cannot assault them. Basically if after a turn where we exchange fire the Ork Buggies end up with more losses and/or BMs then I end the turn with then I cannot exploit that advantage one snit because I cannot assault them so I just sit there and shoot at them again, or retreat. The reverse is not true those Buggies can hit me the moment I end the turn in a poorer BM and/or loss situation then them. Therefore the enemy has total control over the initiative in the situation, and if you lose control of the initiative you lose.

In this Buggy situation I am watching as a 350pt formation being totally exploited by a formation of slightly lesser value, and even if the points were even the Orks almost can't lose.

To prevent just this type of lopsided situation from occurring in the battle each of my Forger Guilds had a Colossus parked in the middle of them. (The above situation, and others like it occurred, in our playtests using a 10cm infantry move)

The Stompa Mob situation was much worse, and the realtive points weren't just Forgers vs Stompas because I wasn't going to just watch as a 645pt formation rolled up on a 350pts formation. I had the Forgers (350pts), a Colossus (450pts), and the Hearthguard (200pts) for a total of 1,100pts comitted to the action mentioned. Rich had the Stompa Mob (645pts), a Blitz Brigade (350pts), and a Baby Blitz Brigade (200pts) for a total of 1,150pts comitted to the action mentioned.

While the points comitted to the action were pretty even the tactical situation was abysmal. The Orks were stacked Stompa Mob in the lead, Blitz Brigade behind it, and the Baby Blitz Brigade third in line. This put the Stompa Mob and the Blitz Brigade in both assault and shooting range of three of my formations. The reverse was not true I was only in shooting range of the Ork formations.

All the initiative was in Rich's hands because I had no way to advance on him without comitting suicide, and standing there meant my eventual destruction. (Moving to change the situation to one of mutual advantage meant a turn where my firepower was reduced to the Colossus alone carrying out any kind of effective shooting. While the Orks could blaze away with full effect)

Now IF I had a 15cm move then I could have thrown all of my firepower at the Stompa Mob, gotten a BM advantage and then launched a clipping Assault FF to drive off the Stompa Mob. Orks have a huge problem rallying non-warband formations back to effective fighting formations as they lack the Nobz to shed their BMs. This would have effectively put the Stompa Mob out of the battle for one to two turns. BUT because of the 10cm move I was forced to sit and take it with no way to effectively respond.



Mounted doesn't prevent them moving into cover, though the way I see some players act you would think mounted meant they died when they entered cover. In the Space Wolves vs Orks batrep I did for Dobbsy, Rich threw his Uge Blitz Brigade into Woods 'C' to attack the 1st Great Company losing one Gunwagon and driving the Marines out of the Woods. Also you can deploy them in cover right from the start with no possible losses, which is what I did.

Indirect Fire gives the Thudd Guns a max range of 90cms, and they don't have to see their target to shoot at it. Placed as I had them Rich needed to overcome my front line to have any hope of being able to draw a line of sight on them, short of getting aircraft, which he didn't.



So does the tactical skills of both players involved in the battle. Rich would have just loved to have been able to get at my Guns and I, of course, was doing everything I could to prevent him being able to do so. The army I fielded could have also prevented teleport and drop ship insertions from upsetting the guns. Both these formations were my reserves and they could have been placed to prevent such a move from causing immediate disruption of my guns firing and still perform their mission as a reserve. From that point on it would then become dependent on the overall battlefield tactical situation as to whether the deep strike could be launched effectively or not, and that is hardly a sure thing for either side.



Funny but why is it neccesary to bunchup in tightly packed ranks to exploit the 10cm move? Sorry but I do not understand the remark.
The tactical situation is the dominant factor here one can never assume that what one wants will always be available. The Mechanics Guild was busy on another part of the battlefield from the encounter mentioned above so was unavailable. Rich, being no fool, had forced the situation to occur.
Withdrawing 5cms would have solved nothing in the situation sited above as the only Ork formation that would have needed to move would have been the Stompas, thus I was still left in a situation from which I had no effective response.
As for blind testing I like using Rich, Jesse, Jack, and myself for playtesting the most because we never bother to slant the non-playtest army (In this case Orks, and call it the control army if you will) for the playtest army being faced, the Squats in this case. I encourage you to go to the Space Wolves vs Orks batrep I have posted and compare this army Rich fielded to the one he fielded in that game. (It is actually too bad that most of my old batreps aren't around anymore because you would be able to see that Rich's list pretty much stays the same with just few twist from lsit to list, and has for a very long time.) They are almost identical. However, it would be very 'cheesey' if I didn't let Rich see the list before he faced it.

Since my new Squat list isn't out yet, and the Thudd Gun stats have been changed to be the same as Demiurg (epilgrim and I were in the process of rationalizing both list to fit together). With a straight line to hit number enough Guns can exceed the effectiveness of the same number of guns using BP Templates in indirect fire. I already know this from other playtest armies so they will be moved to support in the new list.

I still am not saying drop the 10cm movement, but I would be remiss if I didn't show you how it can, and was, exploited. Rather it is being done so you can maybe find out where we failed to make it work, believe me if you can pull it off I would add it to my Squat list in a heartbeat. With all the accolades given to you for pulling it off, and rightfully so.

So you incorrect when you say I disagree with you, when in fact I would love to make it work. However if I do not show you how it can be exploited then you will not be able to find a way to make it work. My solution isn't to just simply disagree with you and site hypothetical examples I prefer to use playtest battles and the results achieved in those instead.

I really do hope this information helps

Cheers
Jaldon

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If you do that then you have to reprice all the core formations and upgrades. You may as well re-write the list as everything is made and priced with the 10cm move in mind.

The list itself is balanced on that premise which is what people seem not to take into account.

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Two things. First, I personally keep grots in front (of course), then Nobz so they aren't suppressed, and have the best chance of getting into CC, then Orks for bulk. of the 14 hits (21 x 2/3), that would tend to place 4 on Grots, 4 on Nobz, and 6 on Boyz. (4*1)+(4*1/2)+(6*5/6)=11 kills. I you place boyz before Nobz, (4*1)+(10*5/6)=12.33.

Second, how can you concentrate 800pts of Artillery against 350pts of infantry in the open and not expect them to break?

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We found that spreading formations out in lines opens them up to clipping assaults. Overwatch when spread out cannot account for this.

We also found (thanks TRC) that placing T&H objectives on the sides of tables (opposite to each other) can really effect an army's ability to 'cover all points'. With an army like the squats, as an opponent, I have no interest in keeping the objectives anywhere near each other. Movement is on my side so why would I cater for their strengths?

Overwatch formations can be covered by making sure that only a few can shoot while they in turn take on a full volley of shooting from your force

In our playtests, we found that if the squats sat on their table edge, then they would lose or at best draw. Maybe we play with more terrain or have different tactics, however Squats needed to move to be competative. The list was made with that in mind. We never had any army charge forth into a line of guns - it does not make sense (learned that the hard way when learning the Epic rules). Maybe we just play differently down under...

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Just some quick comments, kinda tied for time at the moment.

Regarding terrain, did you factor in hills only being worth half/requiring double? We didn't do that early in our group, and it was not pretty. Rich's army list looks pretty solid, but I could see it having troubles against any heavy shooting/artillery army. No fighter bommas, or loaded Landas? Completely different ballgame there.

As Frogbear mentioned, objective placement is important. You tend to want to place the Squat's objectives as close to the frontline, and as far apart as possible. It's not disputed Squats lack maneuverability. In fact, it's your primary argument. The Squats either have to garrison heavily, or forfeit the ability to secure them. If they garrison heavily, pick one to swarm early in numbers, and take them apart in pieces.

Not sure what you mean by the talking about the Forger's frontage. Anyone who spreads out too wide, yes, they're holding things up for Zone Control, but that's when you take them apart piecemeal, either with shooting at the ends, or a clipping assault. Then they're broken, and all sort of problems arise there.

As Spectrar Ghost mentions, the numbers are a little off. I'm not sure how you got 13.86 hits though. It's a solid 14. 66.66`% of 21 is 14. Unlike Spectrar Ghost, I was going off the other standard, that has Boyz in front, so that Grots can be saved for Assault Casualties. That was the advice given by people more knowledgable than me, regards Ork Tactics. 14 hits, 6+ save, should net you two saves, hence my 12 dead estimate. That's assuming, in range, no suppresion, successful activation (2x minimum 2+ Initiative), no cover, no cover save. Again, I see no issue with that, for a formation who's sole capability is artillery. And one that dies like fish in a barrel to any threatening force.

I still don't understand your exploitation of the movement. You mention the Gunwagons hitting on 4+, but the Forgers hitting on 7+. That only works if the Gunwagons are Sustaining (requiring a 3-4+ Initiative test) shooting at Forgers in the open, then the Forgers in the open either advancing and firing on Gunwagons IN COVER, or doubling. I wouldn't expect any Squat formation played like that to perform well. Beside that, how is the movement a factor here? Gunwagons have a 45cm shot. Forgers have a 45cm shot. How does the 10cm vs 15cm move factor in?

Mounted. Yes, they can start in terrain. But if they're forced to move, it becomes a problem. Get within 30cm, and they can't fire indirect. Usually, that'll cut down on the number of shots, unless you have them all within 10cm of the front edge of terrain. Which clusters them together, which makes counter-batteries their death. Mounted also means they only ever get their 6+ Save and can only deploy in some cover. I wasn't pointing out Mounted as some all encompassing penalty. I was pointing out that the Dvergatal Thudd Guns cost more, and are inherently weaker, than all the other versions that have previously been produced. I'm glad that you're changing the official ones to support if you feel the way you do, but I've found them relatively underwhelming in large numbers, given the number of counter-solutions that exist.

I know you could protect them from some predators. Though a Landa in the middle is gonna cause some havoc. But in doing so, you dedicate resources to doing that, often resources that can't redeploy quickly once the battle is engaged. And then if the opponent waits a turn, those protective units have to either abandon their mission, or waste further turns on protective detail.

The part you misunderstood regarding bunching, comes from my lack of misunderstanding of movement exploitation. If you're wanting to take advantage of the lack of Assault Range, while still putting yourself in Assault Range, I can only see that being done in one of two ways. Bunching up so that everyone fits into the 25.1 to 30.0cm "sweet spot", while maintaining unit integrity, or spreading out along that range band. Both approaches have weaknesses the Squat player should be able to exploit. But that assumes my assumption is accurate.

I appreciate your commentaries. They offer insight, but I'm still working my way around your arguments. Most of the initial reasonings are philosophical, so there's a fair amount of internal resistance to change.

Morgan Vening

oh hell ...lol... i didnt realize that. and i've read this entire posting so far.... I need to try this list too since i've only played with the demiurg 4.0. The problem is that lately i'm lucky to get just one game a month and i have 8(orks,3 eldar, guard, TL, AM, Space Marine and squat, whoops nine) armies that beg me to be played. I still need to try out the Iyanden list that i built and painted. It will have to be in the next que of battle after the new eldar army i painted up.

As I said my terrain pieces are standard GT Scenario terrain Pieces my hills/ridges ARE 50% to 100% larger then my Woods/Buildings. As PER the GT rules.



And I would have deployed differntly had their been any Landas, and they aren't all that hard to prepare for or mess up before they arrive. I am still amazed by players fixations with deep strikes, when they really aren't all that hard to counter.



That is exactly what I did. It is the same thing I do when I use my Siege Army.



I thought I was pretty clear, well I will try again. Ever try to pull off a clipping assault against two or three formations forming a continuos front? In this battles case I had 7xunits forward in each Forger Guild with the remaining 5xunits in depth, further each had a Colossus parked in the middle of them, last their flanks were covered by the table edges and the mutual flanks both formations shared were covered by, well each formation (Butted together). The two of them were holding a frontage of roughly 120cms.



In your original response you had said the Forgers should either advance 20cms (a double move) or fall back 5cms. In that case they would be firing on the Gunwagonz at a 7+. I was merely responding to the situation as you had set it up.



That works fine IF all the shots are coming in straight from the front, long range shots rarely do. The second factor is the dice rolls themselves they rarely fall neatly into the ratios we all love to toss around (Please note I do include myself in this so I am not pointing fingers.) No matter how you slice the bread in this case odds are the Orks are going to get hammered, the exact ratios don't matter the big picture effect does.



I realized after I typed this that Buggies would be a better example, and they are, of what I was trying to show. That is why the better example quickly followed the poorer one. The entire point is that you want your forces to be as flexible as possible so closing to within both weapon range and assault range enhances flexibility. Being incapable of doing so reduces flexibility.

Last the battle between the Stompa Mob (reinforced) and the Forgers (reinforced) came from the actual battle and is a much better representation of what I am trying to point out. The others are mere set piece examples of what can happen.



Now I understand what you mean and why it isn't clear. In assaults, as you well now, numbers count in the resolution roll and can be a critical factor in winning or losing the assault. Therefore not every unit has to make it into assault range to have an effect on that assault. In only two instances in the battle did Rich bunch up, and both times it was behind covering terrain where neither Colossus could bring fire to bear on them. In all other instances he was well enough spread out to prevent excess losses to template weapons.

To repeat This Was A Playtest Battle, when we do them victory is a secondary issue and what we are trying to playtest becomes the primary issue. In this case we were concentrating on the effects of the 21xThudd Guns and the Squat 10cm movement. Basically we were trying to overplay both of them to determine what the extremes could be in a game enviroment.

Please stop asking me if I am using the correct terrain, all of my pieces are standard GT as per the rules. Please stop asking me if their was enough Terrain on the table, it was as per the standard GT rules. Heck we even used the standard GT rules, surprise.

As for tactics, the one thing really great about Epic-A is its play balance, pretty much any army list you can come up with will perform effectively on the gaming table IF you know how to use it. Saying that well should have had deep strike it would have changed this or that isn't a valid argument, it wouldn't. Basically the opponent knows you have forces capable of a Deep Strike and modifys their plan to compensate for it.

Basically no different then any other type of tactics needed to play the game, and good players know how to compensate, and they do.

The object of a GT game (to me) is to win.

I could make any number of army lists (as I have in the past) to test something out and invariably those armies win or draw ~30% of games (at a guess).

I am sure that when both sides are playing to win, the game becomes very different (well I would think anyway). Any list could be shown to have extremes - it's how they are managed and it's impact on a GT game that matters. GT games are played to win (IMO) and we have had ~50% strike rate with this force (More if Morgan plays it and less if I do ).

I know we are happy with it, and with the tests we performed - that's all that really matters (to me anyway).

Seeing that is the case, I really do not see why there is a push to see the list in another aspect. I like it and it appears other people do as well. Rather than tackle the specific items that Morgan stated he was not interested in changing, (as we have already had our own discussions on them and Morgan's decision was well thought out - through weeks if not months of discussions and math) why not look at the other differences...?

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This comment doesn't even deserve an answer. Look it would be one damn poor playtest if we ignored this, doh we already know that. 'Focus' only means we concentrated on looking at the results on the battlefield pertaining to what we wanted to focus on IE spent extra time looking at what had occurred.

Rich and Jack are right I am wasting my time. They have seen the posts on terrain, and terrain pieces size and tactics and the above statement and suggested I stop trying. They figure you guys are just trying to nitpick.............so be it I cannot get them to want to spend their valuable time doing the focused battles so I cannot honestly do them.

I really wanted to work on the 10cm movement to see if there was a way to make it work, but obviously you gentlemen wish to remain where you are at, so be it.

Morgan I do wish you the best in your efforts with the Dv Squat list, I really do, but I can no longer remain involved with it because I no longer can get my gaming friends to do it. Also I no longer want to waste my time answering inane questions about the most basic aspects of Epic-A. I helped write the rules so believe me I know them.

Again All the best in the future with the Dv Squat list

Jaldon