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Changes going into 6.32

 Post subject: Changes going into 6.32
PostPosted: Wed Sep 08, 2010 7:50 pm 
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Just a post to highlight some of the things I am thinking of doing going into a version 6.32 of the list, none of these are large changes. Mainly just stat tweaks and organisational things, but I am going to post them for discussion before I make changes so if anyone has any major concerns then they can get their opinion accross now (who knows I might even change my mind ;) ). Once the list goes to 6.32 I hope it will remain fairly stable with only points tweaks based on playtesting likely.

Just to be clear, this list may not be exhaustive - I may decide to make changes without posting about it first (although probably not).

Pathfinders
As discussed Rail rifles go to AP5+ Sniper, formation cost increases to 200pts (upgrade remains at 125pts).

Stealth
Points cost goes down to 250pts for formation.

Tigersharks
Points cost goes down to 200pts for formation.

Kroot Hounds
CC value increased from 4+ to 3+.

Crisis Suits
CC value increased from 6+ to 5+, quick explanation on this one - its a better reflection of 3 crisis suits actual CC abilities and a very minor boost that requires no points change but makes them a tiny bit less fragile to being caught and wiped out in an engagement. While still being poor enough that you would be crazy to use it to actually launch an engagement yourself as shooting at that range is by far the better choice.

Shas'o and Shas'el
Lose invulnerable save, this is just a clearing up exercise as these can only be added to Crisis suits and the Crisis suits now have an invulnerable save anyway so the one on the characters is redundant.

Stealth
Moved the First strike from the gun to notes, it makes no sense on the burst cannons (silenced or otherwise, hmm silent blue plasma - wonder were they are shooting from :) ), its clearly related to the fact they are in stealth suits and so can launch ambushes. Just an uncluttering exercise and the boost of 6+ first strike in CC is so minor as to be meaningless.

Manta
Added a seeker missile, as Mantas are armed with these in the background and I like the guided missile/markerlight dynamic.

Tigershark AX-1-0
Added a seeker missile, but increased cost of formation to 375pts, sure this will get some feedback. Reasoning its armed with seeker missiles on the forgeworld model (basic tigershark isn't) so this brings its stats inline with background. The points increase combined with the reduction in cost of the basic tigershark means at least there must be some thought put into taking AX-1-0's. It really is an air meta game altering formation and it should be a good (if you support it properly), but not easy choice. With the seeker missiles its quite nasty now against even shielded targets (aslong as they are marked - always good to add a bit more synergy to the list) as you will get 4 x AT5+ to maybe drop a couple of shields before unleashing the Railcannons so a points increase is required.

Custodian
Thought about a points decrease but it just seems odd for a battleship to be cheaper than a crusier, even if slow and steady on any spaceship probably justifies it. So have decided to increase missile salvo's to MW4+ - they do give you something different to the Hero as you can target non warengines and in bigger games maybe the larger transport capacity might be useful.


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 Post subject: Re: Changes going into 6.32
PostPosted: Wed Sep 08, 2010 8:04 pm 
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Interesting; I have no problems with any of the above.

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 Post subject: Re: Changes going into 6.32
PostPosted: Wed Sep 08, 2010 8:04 pm 
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re Manta: "a" Guided Missile? It is armed with TEN Seeker Missiles in Wh40k. Standard.

re Tigershark AX-1-0: The 6 Seeker Missiles the Tigershark AX-1-0 can be equipped with are an upgrade. It isn't standard armament. Where the generic Tigershark has either the Gun Drone transport capacity or 6 Seeker Missiles.

I take this from Imperial Armour Apocalypse which stats supercede those of Imperial Armour 3.

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Last edited by BlackLegion on Wed Sep 08, 2010 8:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Changes going into 6.32
PostPosted: Wed Sep 08, 2010 8:11 pm 
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BlackLegion wrote:
re Manta: "a" Guided Missile? It is armed with TEN Seeker Missiles in Wh40k. Standard.

re Tigershark AX-1-0: The 6 Seeker Missiles the Tigershark AX-1-0 canbe equipped with are an upgrade. It isn't standard amrament. Where the generic Tigersharkhas either the Gun Drone transport capacity or 6 Seeker Missiles.

I take this from Imperial Armour Apocalypse which stats supercede those of Imperial Armour 3.


That may be true of Imperial Armour, but the AX-1-0 forgeworld model does come with seeker missiles while the basic tigershark model doesnt.


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 Post subject: Re: Changes going into 6.32
PostPosted: Wed Sep 08, 2010 8:18 pm 
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yme-loc wrote:
Pathfinders


Not quite my ideal, but it'll do.

yme-loc wrote:
Stealth


Understandable.

yme-loc wrote:
Tigersharks


Still doubt they'll be taken until something is done to make gun drones more viable, but it's worth a try.

yme-loc wrote:
Kroot Hounds


Seems reasonable.

yme-loc wrote:
Crisis Suits


Good, I've been calling for this for some time.

yme-loc wrote:
Shas'o and Shas'el


A tidy list is a happy list.

yme-loc wrote:
Stealth


My only concern is that while it's a tiny boost, it is a boost to a formation that also got a price drop...

yme-loc wrote:
Manta


Honestly I think the manta is more than good enough already, but you're right that it does carry them in the apocalypse rules.

yme-loc wrote:
Tigershark AX-1-0


Worth a try I guess. They're pointed about right at the moment, but they're still a no-brainer due to their important niche role.


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 Post subject: Re: Changes going into 6.32
PostPosted: Wed Sep 08, 2010 8:18 pm 
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BlackLegion wrote:
re Manta: "a" Guided Missile? It is armed with TEN Seeker Missiles in Wh40k. Standard.


Ten one-shot missiles. That's much too fiddly for epic.


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 Post subject: Re: Changes going into 6.32
PostPosted: Wed Sep 08, 2010 8:21 pm 
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yme-loc wrote:
That may be true of Imperial Armour, but the AX-1-0 forgeworld model does come with seeker missiles while the basic tigershark model doesnt.


It which case you need to get rid of the drone transport capacity, it's it's one or the other in the background.

This was why there was a seperate missile-armed tigershark btw.


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 Post subject: Re: Changes going into 6.32
PostPosted: Wed Sep 08, 2010 8:25 pm 
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Are the Seeker Missels on the Tigershark AX-1-0 lready a a part of the model or can they be glued on separately?

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 Post subject: Re: Changes going into 6.32
PostPosted: Wed Sep 08, 2010 11:02 pm 
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yme-loc wrote:
J
Tigersharks
Points cost goes down to 200pts for formation.
Tigershark AX-1-0

Still wonder on tshark attractiveness - to be honest they are always going to be an odd choice in a list with air transports, fighters and dead good bombers.

The A-10 is interesting - realise the better but more expensive it gets the more encountering nightwings will massively screw you! :)

Is their no way to be adding seekers to the tigershark to try and make it more than a slightly tougher non fighter barracuda?

Quote:
Manta
Added a seeker missile, as Mantas are armed with these in the background and I like the guided missile/markerlight dynamic.

Are you not tempted to add 2? Carrying 10 of them it could justify it?


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 Post subject: Re: Changes going into 6.32
PostPosted: Wed Sep 08, 2010 11:47 pm 
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Quote:
Tigershark AX-1-0
Added a seeker missile, but increased cost of formation to 375pts, sure this will get some feedback. Reasoning its armed with seeker missiles on the forgeworld model (basic tigershark isn't) so this brings its stats inline with background. The points increase combined with the reduction in cost of the basic tigershark means at least there must be some thought put into taking AX-1-0's. It really is an air meta game altering formation and it should be a good (if you support it properly), but not easy choice. With the seeker missiles its quite nasty now against even shielded targets (aslong as they are marked - always good to add a bit more synergy to the list) as you will get 4 x AT5+ to maybe drop a couple of shields before unleashing the Railcannons so a points increase is required.

Oh geez.... ::) The formation was already a gamble at 350. Adding firepower and increasing its cost just makes an already fragile points sink even worse. This unit did not need this change and just throws the list balance out again. There has been no requests to boost the firepower of this plane. Why are you trying to change it now? Just because the "model has missiles" or " must be some thought put into taking it"....? Seriously? :-\ The plane already needed thought to take it given you need to increase the amount of AA to keep it alive, thus reducing ground units.

Now we need to test yet another change to the list? I thought "close to locking the list for a year" meant there'd be minimal changes. This isn't.


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 Post subject: Re: Changes going into 6.32
PostPosted: Wed Sep 08, 2010 11:49 pm 
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Quote:
Now we need to test yet another change to the list?

When was the last playtest game you played?

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 Post subject: Re: Changes going into 6.32
PostPosted: Wed Sep 08, 2010 11:58 pm 
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A while back, but that is a pointless question in terms of this plane as it's now a new unit.


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 Post subject: Re: Changes going into 6.32
PostPosted: Thu Sep 09, 2010 12:09 am 
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Dobbsy wrote:
Quote:
Tigershark AX-1-0
Added a seeker missile, but increased cost of formation to 375pts, sure this will get some feedback. Reasoning its armed with seeker missiles on the forgeworld model (basic tigershark isn't) so this brings its stats inline with background. The points increase combined with the reduction in cost of the basic tigershark means at least there must be some thought put into taking AX-1-0's. It really is an air meta game altering formation and it should be a good (if you support it properly), but not easy choice. With the seeker missiles its quite nasty now against even shielded targets (aslong as they are marked - always good to add a bit more synergy to the list) as you will get 4 x AT5+ to maybe drop a couple of shields before unleashing the Railcannons so a points increase is required.

Oh geez.... ::) The formation was already a gamble at 350. Adding firepower and increasing its cost just makes an already fragile points sink even worse. This unit did not need this change and just throws the list balance out again. There has been no requests to boost the firepower of this plane. Why are you trying to change it now? Just because the "model has missiles" or " must be some thought put into taking it"....? Seriously? :-\ The plane already needed thought to take it given you need to increase the amount of AA to keep it alive, thus reducing ground units.

Now we need to test yet another change to the list? I thought "close to locking the list for a year" meant there'd be minimal changes. This isn't.


Its based also on my personal experience using it and is intended to make it less of an easy choice - now admittedly if you already thought it a poor choice fair enough.

Hardly difficult to fit into the list though

Mech Fire Warriors + Skyray
Mech Fire Warriors + Skyray
Mech Fire Warriors + Skyray
5 Crisis + SC
Broadside
Skyray
Barracudas
AX-1-0
Recon
Recon
Recon

And at the end of the day, if you find the AX-1-0 a bit fragile or hit and miss then there is always the Manta or the Hero as another option.


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 Post subject: Re: Changes going into 6.32
PostPosted: Thu Sep 09, 2010 12:16 am 
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One aspect is the planes could end up being the BTS - how does that work?


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 Post subject: Re: Changes going into 6.32
PostPosted: Thu Sep 09, 2010 12:24 am 
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The_Real_Chris wrote:
One aspect is the planes could end up being the BTS - how does that work?


Pretty sure they count as BTS if shot down and if they dont turn up to the battle the next most expensive ground formation counts (so dont make them BTS is my advice), 400pt formations arn't hard in a Tau list

Mech Fire Warriors + Skyray + Piranhas

or

Crisis + 1 extra Crisis + SC


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