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AMTL 3.17

 Post subject: Re: AMTL 3.17
PostPosted: Mon Sep 06, 2010 1:18 am 
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With the TLD discussion taking most of the last few pages, was there anything else under consideration that was holding up the release?

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 Post subject: Re: AMTL 3.17
PostPosted: Mon Sep 06, 2010 2:00 am 
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why? on anyone but the warhound, you get much better firepower out of taking lasblasters instead.

i know, i know, more maths... but seriously if you have, say, a 6000pt game*, and you wanna take nothing but AT battletitans.**

assuming no multiweapon surcharge and 25pt TLDs, with reavers you can take 9 pure TLD's or 8 pure Lasblasters. with the TLDs, you're dishing out 108 shots. with the lasblasters, 144. one seems a whole lot better than the other (as a note, the 8 lasblaster titans are 50pts cheaper than the TLDs)
the same maths for warlords, TLDs net you 7 warlords, which is 112 shots, while lasblasters are again, 144 points. once more, the lasblasters are cheaper (in this case enough to buy a triplelasblaster reaver, for an extra 18 shots)

so on anyone that can take it, you get a much cheaper volume of fire by taking lasblasters than TLDs. if the TLDs where free you'd still get better firepower out of lasblasters!***
i've literally taken the most TLD friendly set of changes (making single weapon titans cheaper, making TLDs cheaper, playing at double standard points so that the cheaper weapon gets an extra titan) and its still way better to take lasblasters than TLDs

so if you're not worried about the warhounds, why are you worried at all?

(*6000pt game because thats the point where you start to be able to get more titans if you take the cheaper variant, so on any smaller scale, the stats would have an even bigger gap)
(**hey, at 6000pts who wouldnt want a badass engine-war?)
(***yeah, i did that maths too, its 120 shots with the reavers 128 for the warlords)

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 Post subject: Re: AMTL 3.17
PostPosted: Mon Sep 06, 2010 9:08 am 
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Quote:
so if you're not worried about the warhounds, why are you worried at all?

Just watch what happens when it goes back to 25pts. :-)

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 Post subject: Re: AMTL 3.17
PostPosted: Mon Sep 06, 2010 9:59 am 
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I haven't enough playtesting experience to make a call on the turbolaser discussion; but I'll be happy to test whichever is decided upon.

One thing I would like to discuss is the special 'God Machine' victory conditions for the Grand Tournament games. I think the wording could do with a little tightening up – perhaps change it to 'non-scenario games' (to imply that if you want a competitive 'tournament-balanced' game, you should lose BTS if any of your Battle Titans fall). The current wording seems quite specific to Grand Tournaments.

Secondly, the AMTL list was developed (and remains in development) before the Orkimedes' Gargant Big Mob and Eldar Titan Clan lists were begun. Neither of these comparable forces (or any potential future ones, such as a Chaos Titan Legion list, or a Tyranid Bio-Titan Brood list) has a similar rule.

Ought this to be addressed in the AMTL list? i.e. Should this remain an AMTL-specific note; or ought it to be modified to be ignored in case of the Titans fighting similar War-Engine heavy lists? A third option would be to encourage a similar rule to be adopted by the other lists, but that's beyond the immediate scope of AMTL-specific discussion.

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 Post subject: Re: AMTL 3.17
PostPosted: Mon Sep 06, 2010 10:03 am 
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As I said previously, I can't vouch for the balance of other Titan lists, but I can tell you that the AMTL list needs a "God Machines" type rule to balance it.

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 Post subject: Re: AMTL 3.17
PostPosted: Mon Sep 06, 2010 12:20 pm 
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Yes, I agree – and it's a bit of a pig about the 'Grand Tournament' wording; as I've just noticed that it's the same as the wording used elsewhere, such as the Eldar Avatar's rules. :-\

Well, I'll go and poke the OGBM and ETC champions, see what they think.

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Last edited by Apologist on Mon Sep 06, 2010 12:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: AMTL 3.17
PostPosted: Mon Sep 06, 2010 12:22 pm 
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I'll make it clear that it's intended for use in the "tournament scenario" as listed on page xx of the rulebook...

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 Post subject: Re: AMTL 3.17
PostPosted: Mon Sep 06, 2010 3:06 pm 
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Evil and Chaos wrote:
They're not worth 50pts.

In the current unrestricted slots system, they're worth 35.

But nobody likes them being worth what they're actually worth. :)


I wouldn't say nobody. I don't mind having point values that aren't in 25 point increments. Sure, it can lead to unused points, but if having 35 point TLDs is what it takes to balance the list, I'm all for it.

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 Post subject: Re: AMTL 3.17
PostPosted: Mon Sep 06, 2010 3:17 pm 
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Dwarf Supreme wrote:
Evil and Chaos wrote:
They're not worth 50pts.
In the current unrestricted slots system, they're worth 35.
But nobody likes them being worth what they're actually worth. :)


I wouldn't say nobody. I don't mind having point values that aren't in 25 point increments. Sure, it can lead to unused points, but if having 35 point TLDs is what it takes to balance the list, I'm all for it.


Yes, this.

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 Post subject: Re: AMTL 3.17
PostPosted: Mon Sep 06, 2010 5:30 pm 
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Dwarf Supreme wrote:
Evil and Chaos wrote:
They're not worth 50pts.

In the current unrestricted slots system, they're worth 35.

But nobody likes them being worth what they're actually worth. :)


I wouldn't say nobody. I don't mind having point values that aren't in 25 point increments. Sure, it can lead to unused points, but if having 35 point TLDs is what it takes to balance the list, I'm all for it.


I dont thinkt hat an eg 2985pts army is fundamentally crippled against a 3000pts army :D

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 Post subject: Re: AMTL 3.17
PostPosted: Mon Sep 06, 2010 7:00 pm 
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I don't have a problem with them being 35 points, but I probably won't be taking them very often at that price since I'm usually tight on points and the extra can be put to better use. Mainly, though, I think that with the changes implemented in 3.17 along with 25 point TLD won't unbalance them.

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 Post subject: Re: AMTL 3.17
PostPosted: Mon Sep 06, 2010 7:05 pm 
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What if they were 30pts. :D

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 Post subject: Re: AMTL 3.17
PostPosted: Mon Sep 06, 2010 7:08 pm 
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No. definitely not. That's too close to both options to even warrant consideration :P

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 Post subject: Re: AMTL 3.17
PostPosted: Mon Sep 06, 2010 11:12 pm 
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Apologist wrote:
Ought this to be addressed in the AMTL list? i.e. Should this remain an AMTL-specific note; or ought it to be modified to be ignored in case of the Titans fighting similar War-Engine heavy lists? A third option would be to encourage a similar rule to be adopted by the other lists, but that's beyond the immediate scope of AMTL-specific discussion.

Evil and Chaos wrote:
As I said previously, I can't vouch for the balance of other Titan lists, but I can tell you that the AMTL list needs a "God Machines" type rule to balance it.


Like I mention in the Titan Clan thread, I'm not sure Eldar needs this type of rule but more importantly the list isn't developed enough to even suggesting it. However I think if an AMTL list fights a Eldar Titan Clan, Ork Big Mob or another AMTL list then the God Machines Rule should be suspended and normal BTS applies. As noted before enemy troops will be uplifted seeing any Titan fall but if the attackers are also Titans than just a win wouldn't effect them in the same light. A Veteran Princeps will not be impressed if a Chaos Reaver fell, he be worried and more concern for the lead Warlord or Imperator.

Just my 2 Cents...


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 Post subject: Re: AMTL 3.17
PostPosted: Mon Sep 06, 2010 11:44 pm 
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Quote:
Like I mention in the Titan Clan thread, I'm not sure Eldar needs this type of rule but more importantly the list isn't developed enough to even suggesting it. However I think if an AMTL list fights a Eldar Titan Clan, Ork Big Mob or another AMTL list then the God Machines Rule should be suspended and normal BTS applies. As noted before enemy troops will be uplifted seeing any Titan fall but if the attackers are also Titans than just a win wouldn't effect them in the same light. A Veteran Princeps will not be impressed if a Chaos Reaver fell, he be worried and more concern for the lead Warlord or Imperator.


Isn't God machines changing in the next version to no longer grant BTS and instead work with BMs? If it is, I think that would make this a non-issue.

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