I've noted that this results in an oddity where it may never lose its ZoC in an Engagement, as you can never reach B2B with it to remove its ZoC. Beardy exploits are consequentially possible.

Simplest suggestion would be to say that Support Craft lose their ZoC in Engagements?

Alternatively remove the line about "never counts as being in base to base contact" and just say that Support Craft must always use their Skimmer ability to force a FF in engagements, and would therefore follow all the usual ZoC/b2b rules in Engagements.

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Edited to take into account E&C's post.

+1. I PM'd the idea that I wanted this for the Chaos Squat rule as well yet I guess I am being ignored.

I guess once again we will have two lists with two different rules for the same situation. Silly really

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Sorry I skimmed over your suggestion. (Har har)

Anyways, your "APU" suggestion isn't really "popped up" as described by the basic mechanics of the Epic rule system.

It's a new form of "popping up" that doesn't take into account the positions of buildings, etc, when the unit is being shot at. Basically it's returning half-way towards the old "support craft" rule as it was in earlier Tau list iterations. That rule had two big sins, firstly:

1 - It was overpowered. The "can always see" worked both ways, and so the Manta became the ultimate hunter, able to kill anything on the board pretty much without moving.

This, in turn, spawned sin number two:

2 - It was a "brainless" mechanic. It required no thought to enact or to counteract, just good army list combinations and fortuitous dice rolls. A rule being "brainless" is an even worse game design sin than being "overpowered".


So basically, I don't see returning to a similar mechanic (One that removes all considerations of terrain from the game) as being a good direction.


Not only would I suggest we don't use your "APU" rule in the Tau list, I'd exhort you to seriously consider what you want your "APU" rule to achieve in the Chaos Squat list.

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I am not really very familiar with the Chaos squat list, does it have manta sized vehicles, would the two rules have to be the same. Looking at your post they are similar just written differently, for instance a popped up skimmer doesnt really gain any cover saves as the terrain is closer to it than the enemy so line of fire isn't obscured. Although I note yours disregards terrain entirely which doesn't seem inline with current skimmer rules.

Removing barging isnt really an option as it leads to oddness were the manta can be stopped dead in its tracks by a lowly grot, hence the addition of being a skimmer that is forced to firefight, so that barging is still allowed but preventing it going into CC which would be odd.

My fault people

I saw Yme Loc's post and thought he ignored my PM. I also didn't 'click' to the situation that if you can see it, they can see you. I never intended this to be the case. It would be good if the rules could incorporate my 'vision' however I guess the whole idea is to make a rule that does not break rule fundamentals that make the game so elegant.

I will adopt the Support Craft rule for the Zeppelin as well then. It helps with parity and makes sense.

Cheers....

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I would like to propose the following wording of Support Craft to incorporate it's use as standard across lists:
============================

Support Craft

Some large war engines operate above the battlefield, below the airspace used by aircraft, but higher than standard skimmer levels and terrain features.

War Engines which loom over the fight in this way have Support Craft stated in their individual notes. Support craft count as skimmers that for all line of sight and terrain purposes count as ‘popped up’ at all times. If the Support Craft has a Transport option, any transported troops are able to embark and disembark units, with any units transported being allowed a save as normal if the Support Craft is destroyed.

Because they are so high above the battlefield a Support Craft must always use their Skimmer ability to force a firefight in engagements.
==============================

I believe this covers all situations.

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Yes a more generaly phrased Transport wording is better, although I think you have left a 'units' in the wrong place (also the wording on transported embarking/disembarking could be argued to apply only to originally transported troops) so another suggested wording based on the above would be.

Support Craft

Some large war engines operate above the battlefield, below the airspace used by aircraft, but higher than standard skimmer levels and terrain features.

War Engines which loom over the fight in this way have Support Craft stated in their individual notes. Support craft count as skimmers that for all line of sight and terrain purposes count as ‘popped up’ at all times. If the Support Craft has a Transport option, it may embark and disembark units as normal, embarked units are allowed a save if the Support Craft is destroyed.

Because they are so high above the battlefield a Support Craft must always use their Skimmer ability to force a firefight in engagements.




Thinking about this a bit in line with a more generic wording will this rule be required for anything that is not a War engine, if so for an even more generic version see below. It also removes the specific mention of the Notes on the assumption that if you see Support Craft written in the notes you will work out that this special rule applies - is this reasonable?

Support Craft

Some war engines and vehicles operate above the battlefield, below the airspace used by aircraft, but higher than standard skimmer levels and terrain features.

Support craft count as skimmers that for all line of sight and terrain purposes count as ‘popped up’ at all times. If the Support Craft has a Transport option, it may embark and disembark units as normal, embarked units are allowed a save if the Support Craft is destroyed.

Because they are so high above the battlefield a Support Craft must always use their Skimmer ability to force a firefight in engagements.

Yup, leaving it open for other unit types makes sense. Maybe even infantry!

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I'm not sure I like the "embarked units are allowed a save" part, purely from a "reality"* perspective. Granted, it's not travelling as fast as a downed flier, but where's the 'Oh, the humanity!' Hindenburg aspect?

* Yeah, wanting reality in a GW game. I know! I know!

Morgan Vening

Bad example; People jumped from the Hindenburg and lived. :-)

EDIT: Wikipedia says that 2/3rds of the people onboard survived. Yup.

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Objection withdrawn.

Though, to be fair, it was actively landing at the time of the incident.

Morgan Vening

Indeed, its going to be pretty weird infantry but there is no real reason to leave it out of the rule, so hopefully unless their are objections here is a final version.

Support Craft

Some war engines, vehicles or infantry operate above the battlefield, below the airspace used by aircraft, but higher than standard skimmer levels and terrain features.

Support craft count as skimmers that for all line of sight and terrain purposes count as ‘popped up’ at all times. If the Support Craft has a transport option, it may embark and disembark units as normal, embarked units are allowed a save (see 1.7.5) if the Support Craft is destroyed.

Because they are so high above the battlefield a Support Craft must always use their Skimmer ability to force a firefight in engagements.

Its a reasonable concern and one I considered but implementing it just makes transporting stuff a bit too risky which I dont think is a good thing.

I think with the Manta you can assume it takes a little time for all of its anti grav motors to fail and it crashes fairly slowly and that Tau tend to fit alot of escape pod type things to their vehicles.

One final thing with regards a generic support craft rule that just occured to me, is it reasonable that the -1 to hit infantry in base contact with a vehicle still applies.

Again I dont think the popped up skimmer rules remove this ability (although perhaps they should, or do and I am reading them wrong), if a popped up skimmer can give it is it ok for a support craft?

Could assume a number of abstractions with a Manta, its size is distracting the enemy or maybe it can extend its deflector fields a little. But in a generic rule should there be something specifically removing this ability of vehicles.