I think that the 40K roles for Arcos, repentia and zealots are sperate enough to be representable in epic.

Arcos - most controllable, most flexible - produce lots of low strength power weapon attacks

Repentia - best aimed at vehicles, they die in combat - produce some very high strength, penetrating attacks.

zealots - a surging mob with some limited ability to hit hard, high strength and penetrating.


Repentia are more elite, and have a higher damage output per model the zealots. Becuase they strike last and have minimal armour, they get slaughtered in cc by anything larger or more compentant then a 20man unit of guard.

zealots are a rabble that have the bulk numbers to take on that 20man unit of guard. (game balance wise they are basically superior to repentia in every way). The four or five evisarators you might find in a mob of thirty are as good as the 4 or five evisarators that generally make it across the field in a unit of repentia.

I'd say give the Arco's multi-hit power weapons, the repentia MW and the zealot's power weapons.

Two elie units and one rabble.

Note that by "zealots" I was referring to the Necromunda Redemptionist Zealots, which are effectively a frenzied guys with evicerators.

The 40k chapter approved "zealots" are a conglomoration of all the necromunda redemptionists in one formation, i.e. the redemptionists I have already in the list. If I added other redemptionist types such as zealots, deacons and novices they would be in addition to the existing type already included.

Fascinating discussions. I am not an expert in fluff, so the only real thing I can comment on is the Dominions and Retibutors, both of which Zombo has summarized perfectly, I feel.

The last game I played with this list made me realize that I needed a second unit of Rets, and yes, those 2 shots at 30cm were muy importante! Shorter ranged firepower isnt as valuable in a list that has very little of anything past 15cm.

The Dominions also felt right as an add-on with FF MW only, and I'd want some in all my mechanized Sisters formations. However start adding in every option to every formation and you run out of points quickly!

I dont see myself diluting my list with IG units, personally, but the SUper-Heavies are important as are the aircraft. Removing those two will require some heavy tooling up in other areas, perhaps even artificially so, to make the list viable.

Er...looking at the Dominions I've seen kicking about, they've got four meltaguns to ten sisters.

Which would mean two per base. Which would seem fairly appropriate for a MW FF attack but no actual ranged shot.

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Dominion squads are 5-10 in 40k and up to 4 may have meltaguns. In practice they're almost always minimum sized, and usually transported in an immolator.

Technically Retributors are the same, with up to 4 heavy weapons in a 5 woman squad...

Epic tends toward representing max sizes rather than minimums - witness Devastators. 2 MLs per base. Not 4. Or Guard, with one autocannon per two bases.

Ignore Tacticals. They are an illusion.

In any case, two per base would let you justify them not having a ranged attack but still be enough for the actual FF attack. Which was the point. If there was one.

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Because, while there was a separation of naval and ground force command structures, they invariably work closely together, and the chains of command do intersect – ultimately at the level of an Inquisitor or Warmaster. Now a Ministorum force is explicitly denied warships, aircraft or ground troops other than the Sisters. Titans are an entirely different issue as they always act as allied forces except with Skitarii, but there the issue is more to underline the fact that this is a religious crusade, and those machine-worshipping maniacs are unlikely to join with the corpse-worshipping maniacs.
This is all presuming this is a pure ministorum force, as per the title of the list. If it is an Inquisition or Crusading force – or indeed a defending force such as Armageddon, then combined arms is appropriate. But I think the character of a Ministorum list is underlined if you actually deny them the troops they’re not meant to have. But for me, it’s a matter of feel. The Black Legion doesn’t contain cultists and the LatD don’t contain Space Marines – this is done obviously to keep the lists distinct and preserve the flavour of each individual list. Similarly, given that the Ecclesiarchy cannot have Imperial Guard troops, it feels wrong to put them in the list, regardless of the clever rationale that you come up with – they were diplomaticised into service or whatever.

Which is fine. Take my advice or leave it – the only things we really need to agree on for consistency are the unit names and datafaxes, plus the Pray mechanic. I think including Imperial Guard units adds nothing of value to the list (you already have redemptionist cannon fodder and exorcist armour) and detracts from the sisters themselves. Similarly, titans could be replaced by rolling cathedrals or shrines – I’m cool if you want to make smaller versions incidentally, no reason all giant rolling cathedral bastions need be the same size! I don’t think there’s anything intrinsically broken about a DC12 unit, but maybe that can be toned back. Anyway, my comment is to do just what you’re saying – make a more detailed focus on the sisters. I think Guard units detract from that. Why not expand on the Sisters themselves?
I understand that I’ve been absent and while I’ve done some work on Ordo Xenos and Malleus in my absence, Hereticus has languished primarily as I’ve received virtually no feedback at all in the six or so years since I started it. What little playtesting I’ve done has been with proxies. There was a little feedback as the odd witch hunter player popped out of the woodwork, but by and large it’s been pretty nonexistent.

I think you’re getting too focussed on 40K mechanics – the ally mechanic in 40K is an artefact of 3rd edition. And look at what you’re saying – sisters allying with an Imperial Guard force – fine, happens all the time. Guard units inducted to an Ordo Hereticus force. But guard being put under the command of an Ecclesiarchical force? Seems unlikely.

Possible and it’d sit better with me. Although I played with a complicated ally system with the Inquisition and I ended up simply axing most of the allies though. Can you explain why you feel Guard are needed in this list? What do they bring to the table that the Redemptionists or Sisters can’t replicate?

Ha! Do what I say not what I do, eh? It is indeed. Mind you, did you see the v1 or v2 versions of the Inquisition lists! I’ve gone through painful editions where I’ve removed all Space Marine allies – despite them obviously being in character and allowed in 40K, along with most of the guard allies. Still, the a full Inquisition Strike Force is almost ALWAYS shown going into battle with waves of inducted Imperial Guard – and the Inquisitions are exactly the opposite of the Ecclesiarchy. Whereas the Ministorum is expressly forbidden warships, aircraft, ground troops and are unlikely to ever have Titan support unless they’re supporting a larger war effort, the Inquisition is the polar opposite and, lacking their own forces, draws allies from every branch of the Imperium. I’ve struggled with the issues of cutting down the options to a manageable level while still giving this feeling of combined arms – but a true Ministorum list should have a very different feel in my opinion.

That’s fine with me. I might suggest looking at the Inquisition’s Obsidian Fortress as a basis as this has been playtested quite a bit unlike the Basilica.

I don’t think Dawn of War is a very credible source. What do YOU think is appropriate? Given that we know the Sisters aren’t allowed air support of their own, any Navy aircraft is as appropriate as any other as allies.

Sure, I'm not proposing an increase in retributor weapons or anything, just stating that the number of meltaguns carried by dominions is definitely enough to be worth representing.

Just as Imperial Guard are explicitly denied warships. Their chains of command cross no more and no less than the Sisters' chains of command cross with the navy.



Depends on the Forgeworld... have you read the Black Library book "Titanicus"?
It delves a lot into the split within the Mechanicus between those factions that worship the Emperor as explicitly an aspect of the Machine God, and those who merely pay lip service to that conceit.

In other words, some Forgeworlds would be more than happy to send Titans to work alongside a religious crusade in the name of the God-Emperor.

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In regard to the presence of Guard, I'd like it better if it could somehow be distinct from the use of Guard by the Ordo Hereticus (aesthetically. I'm not about to have an Ordo Hereticus army any time soon).

Perhaps the Adeptus Arbites are an option? You could even have it be either Arbites OR Redemptionists. While the Arbites aren't under Ministorum command either, I can see them being more open to influence than IG or even PDF.

E&C: Don't the IG and IN chains of command do converge within the Departmento Munitorum? The SoB are outside that, I had thought.

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Yet you're against including dominions, or having the characters do more. There is little more I can do to expand on the sisters without making stuff up, and I'm not keen on doing that unless absolutely neccessary.



I am certain that situation is changing. I will discuss this further in PM.



The Codex Armageddon list is a ministorum sisters list, yet allows guard allies through the purchase of sisters famulous. It's solid evidence.



Simple; ranged firepower. The only unit the sisters and ecclesiarchy have with a range longer than 30cm is the exorcist.

As I said, I'm certainly flexible on cutting back some of the guard options, and moving them to the allies section (which neatly cuts into the titan and air budget too). They're not going entirely; they have an important niche in the list and are valid background-wise.

I could even drop to 25% allies.



I certainly did. No comment.



I'll look into it. I think 2 options, a DC3 mobile chapel and a DC6 mobile cathedral is the way forward, as it allows cutting the titans and baneblade.


I don’t think Dawn of War is a very credible source. What do YOU think is appropriate? Given that we know the Sisters aren’t allowed air support of their own, any Navy aircraft is as appropriate as any other as allies.[/quote]

Dawn of war is not the most credible source, but it is a source, and the only source of any kind mentioning sisters and planes. I think it'd be a nice nod to it.

The Lord Commander of the Navy, the Lord Commander Millitant of the Imperial Guard, and the Abbess Sanctorum of the Adepta Sororitas are all of equal rank (Any one of the three may sit as a High Lord of Terra on occcasion).

The only authorities higher than those three individuals are going to be the Inquisition, or the wider council of High Lords.

I'm such a nerd

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Fair enough.

Would it be fair to say that there's more of an official formal relationship between them - i.e. that the Guard are transported by the Navy routinely?

If yes, does such a relationship exist between the Navy and the SoBs?

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I didn't complain about your additional characters. I don't know that your change to the Faithful rule really adds to the variety in the list, and while I find Dominions a little fine-scale for my liking I'm okay with them if they’re needed for variety. Again, would it be absolutely impossible to give the Dominions multi-meltas as in my previous suggestion? Essentially 4 meltaguns = 2 multimeltas if that makes it more palatable?

This:

- reconciles my melta HW unit with your heavy bolter Retributors
- avoids the issue of needing to create a unit with meltaguns – a ubiquitous imperial and chaos weapon yet not at all used AFAIK in Epic (other than the dodgy “melta weapons” small arms belonging to Raptors)
- allows you to actually see the difference – I mean, how are you actually going to distinguish between Sisters and Dominions at 6mm scale without a heavy weapon?

Is it too much of a stretch to say that Retributors = heavy weapons and Dominions = (multi) meltas? This way we’d be able to stick with established heavy weapon stats without needing to introduce meltaguns when they’re not represented at Epic scale in any other list (other than the aforementioned “melta weapons” belonging to the Raptors). I mean, in 40K no one takes Retributors as Exorcists are so ridiculously good and multi-meltas aren’t that great on non-relentless foot troops. But at the Epic scale, lumping multi-melta and meltagun teams into a generic “Dominon” unit entry with established multi-melta profile leaving “Retributos” as heavy weapon teams solves all of these problems.


Just because something can be justified doesn’t mean it is a good idea.

Edit: However, I did find the following while re-reading Codex Witch Hunters. Joined by the Frateris Militia (bands of civilians, lay-people or seconded planetary defence forces) the Sisters persecute the enemies of the Imperial Creed." So maybe I can get behind a single formation of guard with chimera that are labelled as Frateris Militia. I think military hardware like sentinels and baneblades are a bit much for PDF or militia forces, and they can be replaced by mobile shrines and penitent engines.


Well, that gives the Exorcist a vital role in the list, doesn’t it? Is there any reason the Redemptionists can’t be given some ranged firepower?


I think this is a very good idea, I was thinking about suggesting something similar. It’d at least show that the Ministorum doesn’t really have the same access to other organisations. I’d still prefer a more draconian denial of allies, but hey.


DC3 seems rather small - although I’ve seen some baneblade-sized mobile shrines as 40K conversions around the interwebs so I suppose that’s plausible and supported by fan efforts. DC6 seems small for a cathedral but I’d like to see it playtested. However, I've seen several mobile cathedral conversions for epic and they've all been much, much bigger than DC6...

Yep.


It depends. If an Adepta Sororitas force is attached to a battlegroup, then obviously it gets a ride. Naturally any Sisters of Battle attached to the Ordo Hereticus will use either inducted Naval ships or the Ordo Hereticus' personal fleets.

As for Sisters on their own as part of the War of Faith, there's next to nothing on this subject, as most examples are of convents being already on the planet in question. Presumably they either have their own transports, either private ecclesiastical ships or hired transporters.