First thank you all for the comments and advise. It's much appreciated.

In our next game we will try the following changes to the NetEA compendium beta list:
- (Black) Guardians armour 5+ and +50pts
- Falcons, Fire Prisms, Nightspinner Inv Save
- Aircraft Initiative 1+

@matthemuppet
I'm not sure about the Titans either. I guess their best point is the model. But they really put some hurt on activations. And 2 Scorpion have actually more firepower. The Holofield can make them quite resilient though. Not sure if they are worth all these points but I guess they can be used to good effect.

I'm using the NetEA list so Wraithguard are "only" 3+ armour and not 4+ reinforced. They're still fearless and quite good shields but IMO it is better to take Serpents and be more mobile. The problem with Wraithgates is that the enemy has to get close and you simply can't lash out as far as with Serpents. Not sure if Storm Serpents and Vampires are good replacements as they are "only" good for delivery and not much afterwards. It might be all you need with a good alpha strike though.

I'm really thinking about not taking the Titans as this would give me more points to play around with.

On the general idea of 5+ save Guardians:
Can we agree that there is nothing wrong with it from a fluff point of view? If +50pts is correct remains to be seen of course. And for gameplay it's like the difference between MSM and MMS Eldar in BFG. (And guess which I favour. >:D )

5+ save guardians is just not right at this scale. They have the same level of armour as imperial guard infantry, who equally don't get a save in epic. They don't even get a save to a boltgun in 40k! Put them in buildings and they'll survive nicely anyway, if they're caught in the open they deserve to die. Even orks only get a 6+ save.

Not only that, but guardians and the eldar list as a whole don't need a boost.

If you want to test different stats for Eldar, I'd base them off of the most recent list (found in Epic Rules amendments, Craftworld Eldar), not something floating around in the interwebs.

Wave serpents are good, but you have to have the troops loaded up to get a decent assault range (50cm give or take) and that's pretty risky if your opponent's on the ball, even with 5+RA. I've had an assaulting wave serpent + Black Guardian fm broken before it even arrives, due to overwatch fire. You also have to deal with BM and being shot at in general, while fms in the webway are immune from attack. The point about the wraithgate is exactly that the enemy have to come within 30cm to claim it as an objective - view it as area denial, not just a launch point for an attack.

Vampires are actually excellent tank hunters, plus can land and contest objectives, denying them to your enemy on the 3rd turn. Storm serpents are so so tanks, but a 135cm assault range for a webway'd guardian + wraithguard fm is pretty scary. If they were so poo, my opponents wouldn't expend so much energy trying to destroy them

you're totally wrong zombo, Eldar suck and I never win with them

I personally agree, I think Eldar are pretty well balanced, but if KalTaron wants to playtest differences it's up to him. He will have a very high threshold to overcome to convince the Epic Eldar community (let alone other non-Eldar players ) that changes are necessary. No harm in trying though.

Of course, it's completely between him and his opponents. Your game, your rules. I can't see him convincing the wider world however.

My problem with the Storm Serpent is that the formations jump out of the webway (at 105cm Engage range, if I'm not mistaken - 75cm March + 30cm Engage) then spend the rest of the game sitting there as the opponent avoids them due to superior movement.

Also, It is sometimes difficult to get the Storm Serpents into range to drop troops in the first place - I find that the fire magnet effect the Storm Serpent has makes it less survivable than a formation of Wave Serpents. People who wouldn't blink an eye at an Aspect Warhost mounted up level obscene amounts of firepower Storm Serpents that have nothing but Guardians to drop out.

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SG

Ghost's Paint Blog, where everything goes that isn't something else.

If the enemy wants to avoid putting units near their Blitz after I've arrived there, that's fine by me! *laugh*

nuts, I thought I'd screwed up somewhere (whoa, 135cm? must have been missing something ). As to what happens to fms that win assaults out of storm serpents, that's not really any different to air assaults or teleports. Plan your target, make sure there's cover within 15cm consolidation and an objective within march range next turn.

I agree on the fire magnetism of storm serpents, though I've still won games when mine's been blown up - that's what the wraithgate and guardians loaded up in a vampire are for I guess I just haven't played troops in wave serpents enough, used to use them early on but never found them quite as powerful as I'd expected, certainly nothing compared to a Guardian + wraithguard fm. Perhaps I just need more practice..

Wraithguard have 4+ RA according to the NetEA list. At one time a save reduction to 3+ non-RA was proposed, but that change has been dropped.


No, we can't . There's nothing in the fluff that suggests that Eldar Mesh Armour is as effective as Imperial Carapace Armour or the armour of Tau Fire Warriors. The fluff presents Eldar as generally eschewing heavy armour in favour of mobility and flexibility. It may well be possible to balance Guardians with a 5+ save, but they are not consistent with the fluff. 6+ maybe. The fluff does present it as being better than Flak armour. But not 5+.

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"Good ale, the true and proper drink of Englishmen. He is not deserving of the name of Englishman who speaketh against ale, that is good ale."
- George Borrow

It's your game, Kal, but keep this in mind:

CanCon 2010 results:


Every Eldar player was in the top half. They took first and second. [edit] And tied for third. [/edit] This army does NOT need a buff. It plays well, and once you get the tactics down, it is very competitive.

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SG

Ghost's Paint Blog, where everything goes that isn't something else.

Probably misremembering those 180cm moving Jetbikes from our game. Fight, fight, fight, protect, defend, kill. Ok, one activation left, and then we're on to Turn 4. Muppet "I activate my Storm Serpent, march it 75cm to that objective. No more activations? OK, I march my Jetbikes another 105cm. Hey, I win!". Damn, what a wank that was.

Morgan Vening
- Not bitter.

I believe KalTaron's proposal for th e 5+ also includes the various psychic powers embedded Warlocks grant the Guardians, not *just* their Mesh Armour.

That said, I think 5+ far too generous, especially for a mere 50 points.

KalTaron, are you also increasing the costs of the various Falcon based tanks if you're giving them invulnerable saves? They are already quite competative at their current cost without it.

Hah! I'll have to remember that one!

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SG

Ghost's Paint Blog, where everything goes that isn't something else.

Guardians are pretty brutal as is. As other posters have said keep them in cover and use them wisely. They kick out a decent amount of firepower. I believe they're balanced and costed perfectly and arguably the best Host type the Eldar have. If you were to bump their save to 5+ the Guardians would need their points cost adjusted to compensate. That would make them loose their niche in the list as most people would just prefer to go for the Aspects.

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-Malakai

"You'll never understand how much watching other people's pain gets me off, hearing their screams and knowing that I have the power of a god." -Velvet Acid Christ

and you know the best bit about that particularly nefarious move? I had a 2cm gap between the ZoC of 2 of your formations to get through to that objective I still believe you were too gentlemanly about giving me that game, I think you moved a warrior fm one way, then realised you could force a 4th turn if you moved it a different direction, but for some reason refused to do so, even though I was game.

Then again, I was amazed that I passed those 2 activations. Usually when winning a game comes down to 2 or 3 key activations, I fail all of them, bloody Eldar. Case in point - to win against Dave (SM) I needed to either activate my Nightwings to strafe a lone Land Speeder contesting his Blitz OR a lone Falcon to do the same OR land my Vampire to contest one of this TnH or my Blitz. What happened? They all failed (all at 2+ I believe, perhaps 3+ for the Falcon) so I lost 2-1 instead of winning 2-1.