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Who to Charge?

 Post subject: Who to Charge?
PostPosted: Sat Jan 30, 2010 4:58 am 
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Quote: (frogbear @ Jan. 29 2010, 22:53 )

Quote: (Ginger @ Jan. 29 2010, 23:36 )

Also, from 1.12.3 you must move into B-B.

This is an interesting point if it is true.

That means I now have a use for CC scout units. They just get within 10cm of the FF opposition forcing them into a CC combat or moving away. So no way for them to FF.

Interesting....

Heh.

"Fellow Guardians, that ravening chaos monster is too close! Drop your Shuriken Catapult, and charge him!" - Guardian Commander
"But he's still thirty metres away! Our entire purpose is to lay down massed fire of razor sharp projectiles! He's not that close!" - Guardian Plebe
"It doesn't matter! Forward CHARGE!" - Guardian Commander

I thought I'd seen silly rules. This one trumps most of them. Birthday rule is still worse, though.

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 Post subject: Who to Charge?
PostPosted: Sat Jan 30, 2010 6:38 am 
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Quote: (Irondeath @ Jan. 30 2010, 08:48 )

The RAW are wrong. It was a bad call.

I must be getting old...   :down:

What does 'RAW' stand for?

I was thinking Rules as Written, yet then my initial thought that it would be written as 'RaW'

Anyone?

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 Post subject: Who to Charge?
PostPosted: Sat Jan 30, 2010 7:35 am 
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Correct. Rules As Written. Or Really Amazing Widgits. Your choice, really.

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 Post subject: Who to Charge?
PostPosted: Sat Jan 30, 2010 10:17 am 
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Yep, Rules as Written. I am not expecting to see any changes though.

The ZoC part tries to minimize the number of units getting into contact, and as I ranted above this ia a bad thing...
:whistle:




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 Post subject: Who to Charge?
PostPosted: Sat Jan 30, 2010 2:19 pm 
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Quote: (Morgan Vening @ Jan. 30 2010, 03:58 )

"Fellow Guardians, that ravening chaos monster is too close! Drop your Shuriken Catapult, and charge him!" - Guardian Commander
"But he's still thirty metres away! Our entire purpose is to lay down massed fire of razor sharp projectiles! He's not that close!" - Guardian Plebe
"It doesn't matter! Forward CHARGE!" - Guardian Commander

I thought I'd seen silly rules. This one trumps most of them. Birthday rule is still worse, though.

This is normally not a "problem" as the enemy ZoC is only 5cm, so there's no need to base them, unless you've somehow started your activation within it; this "must base" only happens with scouts 10cm ZoC as that represents the "possible" locations of the scouting troops.  

The soldiers "on the ground" don't have the god's eye view the players do, nor do they "take turns", as the players do, nor do they stand on little rectangles like the models do.  The scouts' extended ZoC is similar to the concept of an electron probabilty cloud, the actual scouts are "somewhere in there", which is why the enemy has to react differently to them than more closely operating enemy troops.  It's an abstraction of the "unknown" location of the units for the troops on the ground.  As they move around in the "scout probability cloud", there's a high likelihood of them making dangerously close contact with the scouting elements; the game represents this by forcing you to base in this situation.

And, if you're more that 5cm away, and don't want to base, just use a "cautious move" of 5cm... simple.  Or, simply base the nearest scout with a sacrificial unit, negating its zone of control, and now you can move your other models more freely.  There are many ways to deal with the situation.

---

Lastly, the "birthday rule" is in there specifically to be a silly/funny rule to show you the over-arcing spirit of the rules... to have fun.  It also leads to people getting to know each other more in a tournament setting and is there to break some ice.

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 Post subject: Who to Charge?
PostPosted: Sat Jan 30, 2010 2:44 pm 
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Quote: (Chroma @ Jan. 30 2010, 22:19 )

Lastly, the "birthday rule" is in there specifically to be a silly/funny rule to show you the over-arcing spirit of the rules... to have fun.  

Are you serious Chroma?

Epic is a mature game compared to 40K. That rule has no place in the rules. If GW wants to market itself as the top Wargaming company with the best games, then maybe they need to start taking basic rules more seriously.

It is an 'eyesore' that is an embarrassment when marketing the rules as a serious contender to other games.




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 Post subject: Who to Charge?
PostPosted: Sat Jan 30, 2010 3:00 pm 
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Quote: (frogbear @ Jan. 30 2010, 13:44 )

Quote: (Chroma @ Jan. 30 2010, 22:19 )

Lastly, the "birthday rule" is in there specifically to be a silly/funny rule to show you the over-arcing spirit of the rules... to have fun.  

Are you serious Chroma?

Yeah... I'm pretty sure that Epic is supposed to be considered something "fun" to do.   :agree:

You don't find it odd that that Jervis put *one* "silly" rule in there?  It's *obviously* a "Don't take this *too* seriously" statement; it's in there precisely *because* it's a "mature" game to be played by mature players.  It tends to be the immature players who take the rules too seriously, the old "You can't do that!"  "I can to, says so right here!" 40k arguments ad infinitum.

This statement alone of yours, shows me you completely miss the point of it:

Quote: 

Epic is a mature game compared to 40K. That rule has no place in the rules. If GW wants to market itself as the top Wargaming company with the best games, then maybe they need to start taking basic rules more seriously.


It's a jab at rules-lawyers and other "precision" players who mistake the rules for the fun of the game, because it's something so completely "out there" as a rules concept; you'll note it's a "design concept", not an actual rule, and even has the proviso that actual rules take precidence over it; Jervis knew what he was doing.

It's to take the stuffing out of some self-important player who actually has to say, out loud, in front of other people, "I get to go first, because my birthday is next!"  You can't see the Python-esque humour in that?  I have to laugh every time it comes up in a game (rarely) and laugh even more when I see people complaining about it, because it means Jervis has zinged someone yet again!

In my opinion, it's a brilliant addition to the rules.




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 Post subject: Who to Charge?
PostPosted: Sat Jan 30, 2010 11:30 pm 
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Quote: (Chroma @ Jan. 30 2010, 23:00 )

In my opinion

:peace:     :handshake:

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 Post subject: Who to Charge?
PostPosted: Sat Jan 30, 2010 11:32 pm 
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I'm totally with Chroma on this one, the Birthday Rule is a clever way of Jervis saying that the spirit of the game is much more important than strict adherence to the wording of the rules.




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 Post subject: Who to Charge?
PostPosted: Sat Jan 30, 2010 11:32 pm 
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Quote: (frogbear @ Jan. 30 2010, 22:30 )

Quote: (Chroma @ Jan. 30 2010, 23:00 )

In my opinion

:peace:     :handshake:

So, you get the joke now FB?

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 Post subject: Who to Charge?
PostPosted: Sat Jan 30, 2010 11:37 pm 
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I just believe that if a game is going to get more players, 'private jokes' like these need to stay out of the rules.

If people want to be funny, look to Bloodbowl for fun stuff. Such things need to lie outside of the rules and not to be mistaken as such.

I will play Cutthroat Caverns or Space Hulk if I want a Beer and Pretzels game. If I want strategy, then I personally would like 'private jokes' to be kept out of the rules.

Why does everyone have to have known Jervis to understand why things are in a rulebook? It has no place in the rules.

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 Post subject: Who to Charge?
PostPosted: Sat Jan 30, 2010 11:40 pm 
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Quote: (zombocom @ Jan. 30 2010, 22:32 )

I'm totally with Chroma on this one, the Birthday Rule is a clever way of Jervis saying that the spirit of the game is much more important than strict adherence to the wording of the rules.

QFT

"Design Concept: Ties" is my favourite rule in Epic (in fact, it's my favourite rule in all of wargaming!), because it explains what the spirit of the game is neatly and succinctly, using only subtext.



I once wrote a mini-essay on the Birthday Rule, which used to be here, but one of the forum crashes seems to have eaten the post.




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 Post subject: Who to Charge?
PostPosted: Sat Jan 30, 2010 11:47 pm 
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Quote: (frogbear @ Jan. 30 2010, 22:37 )

I just believe that if a game is going to get more players, 'private jokes' like these need to stay out of the rules.

So you still don't get it.

It's not a joke, per se, it's not even a *rule*, it's a "Design Concept"; most of the conditions where there are "ties" are dealt with via explicit rules.  The point of it is "if you can't find it in the rules, settle it in a friendly way".

The *joke* is that people take some kind of affront to the "birthday rule" and play the birthday rule as something serious!

Are you not looking to have fun when you play, FB?  I find EPIC the most fun *AND* most challenging war game I've ever played, that's why it's *good*.  If you're not having fun while playing... why the heck are you playing?

Addendum - How many non-addressed by the rules "ties" are coming up in your games, FB, that the "birthday rule" has become such an issue?  I can't even recall the last time it came up in any of my own games.




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 Post subject: Who to Charge?
PostPosted: Sat Jan 30, 2010 11:54 pm 
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Quote: (Chroma @ Jan. 31 2010, 07:47 )

So you still don't get it.

It's not a joke, per se, it's not even a *rule*, it's a "Design Concept"; most of the conditions where there are "ties" are dealt with via explicit rules.  The point of it is "if you can't find it in the rules, settle it in a friendly way".

The *joke* is that people take some kind of affront to the "birthday rule" and play the birthday rule as something serious!

Are you not looking to have fun when you play, FB?  I find EPIC the most fun *AND* most challenging war game I've ever played, that's why it's *good*.  If you're not having fun while playing... why the heck are you playing?

Dude

I have alot of fun. I have had 50+ games of fun in the last year. Can any of you say the same?

We just ignore the birthday rule as a childish GW inclusion.

I get what you are saying. I just do not believe it has a place in the rules.

Can we leave it at that rather than you placing assumptions on me?   :handshake:

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 Post subject: Who to Charge?
PostPosted: Sat Jan 30, 2010 11:58 pm 
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Quote: 

Addendum - How many non-addressed by the rules "ties" are coming up in your games, FB, that the "birthday rule" has become such an issue?  I can't even recall the last time it came up in any of my own games.

Barring arcane rules collisions, it's only really going to come up in the first moments of the game when Strategy Ratings happen to be tied... and that being so, it's a clear "meta joke" comment from Jervis that works in about five different ways, most of which are funny.  :)




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