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Who to Charge?

 Post subject: Who to Charge?
PostPosted: Wed Jan 27, 2010 2:59 am 
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This one came up in the last game I had with World Eaters vs Eldar (yet to be reported on)

I had my Chosen within 10cm of a scout unit. Therefore in their next action, they would either be forced to Charge or move out of the 10cm. Before their action, the Avatar breaks and runs to be in front of the scouts.

- The chosen are in the 10cm range of the scouts
- The chosen are outside of 5cm of the Avatar
- Chosen choose to charge the scouts

so:

1. Do the Chosen haver to include the Avatar whose zone of control (ZoC) overlaps the scouts at 5cm?
2. Can the Chosen run around the Avatar's ZoC to reach the scouts and not include him?

To keep the game going, I merely included the Avatar in the charge, however it would be good to know what the actual ruling is.

Morgan's view was that the Chosen do not have to charge the Avatar as their target was determined at the start of the Charge (they were already in the scout's ZoC), and they may enter the Avatar's ZoC (but not base contact) after that point without fear due to the overlap.  

Anyone?

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 Post subject: Who to Charge?
PostPosted: Wed Jan 27, 2010 9:42 am 
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The Avatar wasn't directly in the line of charge. It was 5 units abreast, with the Avatar being the closest actual model. But, as stated above, only the Scouts were threatening with ZoC.

Code Sample: 
S    S           S    S
          A  



 C     C      C     C

There were 4 Chosen (30cm charge), and 4 Scouts. So on a one by one basis, each would be forced to charge a Scout, yes?

It's a counteract to the whole "I put my Scouts behind Unit X, you can't charge either!" rule that was rid of years ago.

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 Post subject: Who to Charge?
PostPosted: Wed Jan 27, 2010 1:20 pm 
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Reading the rule on intermingling it states that the 2 formation become one.  When you enter a ZOC you must head for the closest unit (the avatar).  You could avoid the avatar if you stay more than 5cm and more importantly in formation at the end of the move.

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 Post subject: Who to Charge?
PostPosted: Wed Jan 27, 2010 3:35 pm 
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Quote: 

1. Do the Chosen haver to include the Avatar whose zone of control (ZoC) overlaps the scouts at 5cm?

No.  You're never forced to intermingle the defender if you don't want to.

Quote: 

2. Can the Chosen run around the Avatar's ZoC to reach the scouts and not include him?

They actually don't have to avoid the ZoC, as long as they aren't contacting the Avatar.  Once you're in the target's ZoC, moving to base contact with the target takes precedence over the other movement restrictions.

Related FAQ (emphasis added):
Quote: 

Q: It’s possible to place a Scout unit just behind another friendly unit, so that the Scouts 10cm ZOC covers the friendly unit too. If this happens, can I charge the non-Scout unit? The rules say I can’t enter a ZOC unless I’m charging the unit it belongs to.

A: You are, of course, allowed to charge the unit! If an explanation is needed, then let’s say that the rule for moving into base contact with the enemy takes precedence over the rule for not entering another unit’s ZOC. However, any player who has attempted to use this tactic to stop a charge should hang their head in shame!


On a different note, the Chosen would need to be in formation after their charge moves.  Since they are already in the ZoC, they must move directly toward the target.  That might make staying in formation impossible, depending on how far apart the scouts are.  That could mean you have to lose units or declare the Avatar intermingled to make it work or take a different action.  No one can say for sure without seeing the exactly layout of the models.

Obviously, if not directly involved the Avatar would still be in support range and would get those attacks.

==
Quote: 

Reading the rule on intermingling it states that the 2 formation become one.  When you enter a ZOC you must head for the closest unit (the avatar).

This is not quite correct.  When you enter a ZoC, you must head for the unit whose ZoC you entered, not the closest unit.  Obviously, unless you have mixed ZoCs that will be the closest unit, but in a case like this it can be a different model.

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 Post subject: Who to Charge?
PostPosted: Wed Jan 27, 2010 8:54 pm 
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Quote: (nealhunt @ Jan. 27 2010, 23:35 )

No one can say for sure without seeing the exactly layout of the models.

Sorry, it was Juggers instead of Chosen but here was the resulting direct Charge:


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 Post subject: Who to Charge?
PostPosted: Thu Jan 28, 2010 9:17 pm 
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Also note the revision to cover this exact problem in the 2008 FAQ, which allows you to charge the enemy formation in front of scouts even if you enter the scouts ZoC to do so.

Since you are starting the the scouts ZoC, I believe you must charge the scouts or move elsewhere (a march perhaps). Being outside the Avatar's ZoC you do not have to charge it. However, IMHO you could declare a charge on just the Avatar (using FF) provided you move all the chargers outside 10cm of the scouts. Note you do not have to move directly towards the target formation, so a 'dog-leg' manoeuver would be used by most of the units.

In charging the scouts, the middle unit does not have to engage the Avatar if it did not wish to, but in order to preserve the formation coherency it would have to remain within 5cm of friendly units on either side of the Avatar. Unless declaring the Avatar as intermingled, IMHO they would all have to stay outside 5cm of the Avatar.

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 Post subject: Who to Charge?
PostPosted: Fri Jan 29, 2010 8:44 am 
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Quote: (Hena @ Jan. 29 2010, 16:21 )

If they don't have scout, then you would have had to remove half of the Juggers :smile:.

? I don't understand   :down:

That game I think I saw 5 DTT failed which was less than impressive. So removing any more models during the game was a real pain.

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 Post subject: Who to Charge?
PostPosted: Fri Jan 29, 2010 10:37 am 
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Quote: (Hena @ Jan. 29 2010, 18:31 )

You check the coherency after a move. So if they are scouts they can have 20cm coherency, if not 5cm. That 5cm isn't enough to avoid getting close to Avatar, which you cannot do unless it's intermingled.

Ah!

I did think about using their 40cm charge to get around or to the side of them. Do not know how legit that would have been...

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 Post subject: Who to Charge?
PostPosted: Fri Jan 29, 2010 3:36 pm 
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Quote: (frogbear @ Jan. 29 2010, 09:37 )

Quote: (Hena @ Jan. 29 2010, 18:31 )

You check the coherency after a move. So if they are scouts they can have 20cm coherency, if not 5cm. That 5cm isn't enough to avoid getting close to Avatar, which you cannot do unless it's intermingled.

Ah!

I did think about using their 40cm charge to get around or to the side of them. Do not know how legit that would have been...

As I understand it, once a unit is in the ZoC of an enemy unit, you either have to charge the enemy, or move away from that unit. Also, from 1.12.3 you must move into B-B. So if you declare an engage activation targetting the Swooping Hawks, you must move three of your Juggers into B-B with the three SH units.

Finally, the 2008 amendments to scouts also answers this exact question on multiple ZoC in 2.1.8 scouts
Quote: 

2.1.12 Scout
Q: It’s possible to place a Scout unit just behind another friendly unit, so that the Scouts 10cm ZOC covers the friendly unit too. If this happens, can I charge the non-Scout unit? The rules say I can’t enter a ZOC unless I’m charging the unit it belongs to.
A: You are, of course, allowed to charge the unit! If an explanation is needed, then let’s say that the rule for moving into base contact with the enemy takes precedence over the rule for not entering another
unit’s ZOC. However, any player who has attempted to use this tactic to stop a charge should hang their head in shame!


NOTE However, getting three units into B-B with the three 'Hawks does remove their ZoC, freeing your two remaining Juggers units to move elsewhere, and potentially leaving them able to maintain formation coherency by moving in front of the Avatar without entering his ZoC.

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 Post subject: Who to Charge?
PostPosted: Fri Jan 29, 2010 5:14 pm 
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If the Juggers are infiltrators, all this is moot.  They ignore Zones of Control when charging and could pick freely to engage either or both formations.

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 Post subject: Who to Charge?
PostPosted: Fri Jan 29, 2010 11:53 pm 
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Quote: (Ginger @ Jan. 29 2010, 23:36 )

Also, from 1.12.3 you must move into B-B.

This is an interesting point if it is true.

That means I now have a use for CC scout units. They just get within 10cm of the FF opposition forcing them into a CC combat or moving away. So no way for them to FF.

Interesting....

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 Post subject: Who to Charge?
PostPosted: Sat Jan 30, 2010 12:48 am 
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Dare I say...


The RAW are wrong. It was a bad call.

CC is inferior to FF, and allowing the charging player to contact as many enemy units as he can physically touch would be a small step to rectifying this. I am not arguing for all-Infiltrator here, but the front line of an enemy formation should suffer full contact if the attacker has sufficient numbers and move.
:evil:

just MHO...

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