Sniper (like ignore cover, really) only has vague application in assaults. Certainly, there is no text in the assault rules that delineates how sniper would interupt the process.

Of course, a close reading of the rules can resolve any confusion, but my personal experience is that the rules as written rarely get in the way of a good rules arguement.

The Sniper/CC interaction is unclear.  The rules are written solely from the perspective of ranged shooting and the application of hits in assault is slightly different.  You can reference several discussions on Sniper CC in the Nid discussions.

Assuming for the moment that the Banshees could allocate hits on any targets within 15cm of any unit, as all those units are "in range" for the purposes of allocating hits in assault, you get some funky effects.  Not only can you dogpile hits on a unit, you can do some gamey things like allocating all hits outside of base contact, because the units you are fighting are worse in CC.

Or, if you still have to allocate hits to units in base contact Sniper CC gains virtually nothing in terms of freedom to allocate.  Base contact targets will always be allocated first.  All you gain is the ability to double up.

As far as the kind of impact the sniper ability has, assault radically changes that as well.  In ranged fire you can make it AP only.  In assault it can affect armor.  The -1 armor save has a similar effect to MW attacks in that it makes them heavy armor hunters.  The -1 on armor saves hits twice for Reinforced Armor, which would make RA the prime Banshee target.  They would double their kill rate against 4+RA but get less benefit against lighter targets, making them even more focused on heavy armor hunting than MW would.

I think everyone agrees that armor hunters is not something they should be.

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Neal

Okay, so if the Banshees get infiltrator, what would their statline be? What I mean to ask is: will they be CC2+ or CC3+?

Also, this is also assuming that warp spiders lose the scout ability but nothing else, correct?

I'd go so far to say that to get parity with Warp Spiders, Banshees may need both infiltrators AND CC2+.

What was the last word on the possibility of reducing warp spiders' armor to 5+? As far as I'm concerned, their armor value should be the same as that of a dark reaper (although in a perfect world I think it would the DRs armor that is changed to match).

I certainly agree that Howling Banshees should be capable of damaging tanks, so the MW option is definitely not one I would like to see pursued.

I'm not in favour of the ignore cover option either, it makes them too effective against against the wrong sort of opposition in my opinion.

Neither do I want to see their armour save increased, since Striking Scorpions have always meant to be more durable.

I really like the idea of making them infiltrators though, as this would represent their ability to leap acrobatically over other units, and move at high speed very well, thus giving them some useful advantages over Striking Scorpions, so if Eldar players want to test anything, I think this would be a very good change to try out (although I'm sure some of the veterans on this forum probably already have).

One final brief word, this time on Harlequins, one of the best things about Epic EA is that they are not part of the Eldar army list, as it resolves a whole heap of background issues in one go, so I would encourage them to remain separate (and yes, I have Space Marine edition Harlequin stands, so I am disadvantaging myself, before anyone asks )

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I have to agree with Neal about sniper on CC, (though I do like sniper for FF combat). But 'Infiltrator' by itself is also somewhat limited (see conclusions here). The point is that 'Infiltrator' does not work well when combined with transport, because the HBs can only disembark 5cm. IMHO you would probably need to give them 'Jet Pack' and 'Scout' to permit infiltrate to work correctly, allowing them to pick off enemy characters deep inside enemy formations, and giving them a specialist niche.

However doing this exposes the HBs armour weakness, because infiltrating deep into enemy formations inevitably means they are in FF range of something else, and often in large numbers. If used in a mono-aspect formation, this support fire can easily make up the difference in kills between the Banshees and their target. In this role, they are probably optimal when 2-3 are combined with some other FF aspect, but even so they will tend to be a one-shot weapon.

So if we go down this path, is the "character assasination" niche appropriate / sufficient?This assumes 5+ armour and CC2+, with Infiltrator, Scout and Jet Pack.

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"Play up and play the game"

Vitai lampada
Sir Hemry Newbolt

I'm confused

1. I see that there is no way of differentiating light and heavy armoured troops. That is fine

2. There seems to be an issue with Banshees killing lighter armoured troops (IG) in cover (with IC). Aren't they meant to kill any troop type? The fact that guard, orcs, etc are lighter armoured, so what? They do not pay their points for terrain and cover. They pay them for their numbers and mass effects. The argument seems flawed to me.

3. Sniper is supposedly too powerful as it will let them take out armoured units more effectively (-1 AR sv). Is everyone dismissing the fact that Banshees with Infiltrator can still get into a back line and hit tanks and other targets whilst ignoring ZoC? At least with sniper, your front line that you set up with your massed troops will defend the line and prevent your precious tanks getting hit outside the 15cm range - after base contact hits have been sorted.

So whilst people appear to write very well, I feel that the ideas are either making them (banshees) too good, or making  excuses for lighter armoured troops not being able to clain cover against BtB CC attacks which are hard enough to complete. Any massed unit with light armour in cover should be on Overwatch. That there kills the Banshee charge. If they are too close to be charged and are not on Overwatch, then you would really have to question the Eldar general's tactics.

Maybe I just see things differently....  

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Frogbear is responsible for...
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Ultimately, I think most people will be satisfied with HBs being on par with the other aspects. It's obvious we aren't going to find a perfect analog to their abilities in 40k (without resorting to yet another special rule - although the eldar don't have nearly as many as they used to).

I don't think we need to go as far ginger suggests (at least not immediately - lets test a less radical version first). And lets keep in mind, we can nerf Warp Spiders at the same time, if they need it.

I guess I'm okay with giving banshees infiltrator. It may not mean much if they are mounted in transports, but that's a minor quibble to me. But I do think they'll need CC 2+ along with that.

I don't think they need any other special ability (aside from the one they already get), but I wouldn't be against upping their FF ability a pip and doing some hand waving about their masks' area of effect or same such.

Ur kidding warp spider saves should stay at 4+, and in fact I have always thought and expressed that the Dark Reapers should have at least a 4+ save.

I believe this is why the Banshees were made CC2+.  It was a compromise that obviously left most people unhappy to a slight degree without making too many waves.  There is nothing above this post that I didn't see suggested and discussed in the past threads.

FWIW, Banshees and DE Wyches are supposed to be close to mirror images of each other and we made the Wyches infiltrators.  Of course their stats are balanced for the DE list, not necessarily the Eldar lists.  

Ultimately, the problem lies in the pricing structure of the Aspects which conveniently makes their cost identical.  The trade off for that convenience is that you are not going to get a perfect match of their abilities (the same thing goes for Warp Spiders).

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author of Syncing Forward and other stories...

It's a dog-eat-dog world, and I've got my Milkbone underwear on.

There are a couple reasons this isn't important.

Sneaking through infantry to hit higher armored AVs is sometimes self-defeating in an assault unless you have some sort of bonus to kill the vehicles.  Generally higher armor means fewer kills for assault resolution unless forcing the vehicles to CC drops the enemy FF attacks enough to make it worth the difference.  Normally, it's about a wash.

More importantly, there is the option to attack AV-only formations.  Dropping Banshees in a Vampire onto a formation of Leman Russ, for example, would become a preferred tactic with Sniper ability.  Russ saves would be cut in half.  Any non-base-contact tanks can be assigned hits to remove the superior FF.  Average kills would be 3-4 in favor of the Banshees, virtually guaranteeing outnumbering and a fair chance of killing off a Commissar Inspiring.  It would be a near wipeout even if the Banshees took BMs from AA and the Russ were pristine.  I'd risk overextending 550 points to wipe out a 650 point formation with minimal losses any day of the week.

Banshees would be amazing war engine hunters.  Against a normal 4+RA War Engine, a full formation will average 3 points of damage just from First Strikes.  5 Banshees in base contact would kill a Warhound on average, so a full 6 is nearly guaranteed.  Against Holofield titans, they'll average about 4 points.

Sniper has overwhelming consequences for their role in the game.

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Neal

Actually, due to the range restriction on sniper attacks, if used in close combat, they'd only be able to be assigned to targets that were within range, that is, "Base Contact" of an attacking unit with sniper:

Roll separately when attacking with a sniper unit. If they hit, the attacker can choose which enemy unit is hit from those within range and in the line of fire of the sniper unit.

This restriction applies to all attacks, even if the designers didn't have CC/FF snipers in mind and removes the ability to "stretch" such attacks.

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"EPIC: Total War" Lead Developer

Now living in Boston... any EPIC players want to meet up?

I thought CC hits could be allocated to units not in BtB though... Wouldn't this apply to the sniper as well?

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author of Syncing Forward and other stories...

It's a dog-eat-dog world, and I've got my Milkbone underwear on.

For normal CC attacks, that's true, but the actual sniper rule trumps the normal allocation of hits, both in shooting and in any other form of attack; it's a specific restriction on sniper attacks.

Normally you don't record what hits were at what range with shooting attacks allowing shorter ranged attacks to occasionally have their range 'stretched', but attacking with a sniper specifies keeping this specific attacks separate and limits their allocation.

It seems to me to apply, and work logically, in close combat just the same.

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"EPIC: Total War" Lead Developer

Now living in Boston... any EPIC players want to meet up?

Exactly.  Is "in range" the "base contact" designation for assault weapons on the data sheet, or is "in range" the normal 15cm range according to the 12.6 hit allocation rules?  The Sniper rules are written from the perspective of ranged fire where there is no distinction so it's not clear.

Either way, though, there's plenty of reason not to do it, which renders the question moot.

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Neal

"In range" quite clearly refers to the weapons range which is noted as being base contact on the data sheet.

Of all the suggestions so far, sniper is my favourite and makes the most sense (Although from the view of keeping them at 3+ CC).

Also, is it only me that thinks that infantry getting into close contact with armoured vehicles supposed to be really bad news for armoured units?  Because i have a whole lot of history books and manuals that are wrong if that's not the case.