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Problems with Craftworld Eldar list

 Post subject: Problems with Craftworld Eldar list
PostPosted: Fri Nov 13, 2009 2:27 am 
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Quote: (Ginger @ Nov. 12 2009, 19:28 )

Back to Fire Prisms a second, how much would we cost for 5x Fire Prisms under the following
a) 5x FPs 60cm AT2+/AP4+
b) 5x FPs 75cm AT4+/AP4+

Option A  for 300.

I dont like Option B as a stat line for the model.


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 Post subject: Problems with Craftworld Eldar list
PostPosted: Fri Nov 13, 2009 3:53 pm 
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I'd go with option a) for 300pts.

I tried 5 for 250pts last night but they failed to do anything but place a BM the whole game (mostly due to failed activations), so that wasn't particularly informative :)

It was interesting to note that, although my falcon fm suffered the same fate they still managed to hit and break a HH fm, even though they never moved (or successfully activated I think). Not exactly conclusive though..

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 Post subject: Problems with Craftworld Eldar list
PostPosted: Fri Nov 13, 2009 4:01 pm 
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I've run the mathematics for the Fire Prism, Falcon and Firestorm

The armour order is 3+RA, 4+RA, 5+RA, 6+RA, 3+, 4+, 5+, 6+ and gives chance of casualty

2+ Lance (0.28)(0.42)(0.56)(0.69)(0.28)(0.42)(0.56)(0.69)
3+ Lance (0.22)(0.33)(0.44)(0.56)(0.22)(0.33)(0.44)(0.56)
4+ Lance (0.17)(0.25)(0.33)(0.42)(0.17)(0.25)(0.33)(0.42)
5+ Lance (0.11)(0.17)(0.22)(0.28)(0.11)(0.17)(0.22)(0.28)

4+ (0.06)(0.13)(0.22)(0.35)(0.17)(0.25)(0.33)(0.42) <-(Edited error spotted by Ginger)
5+ (0.04)(0.08)(0.15)(0.23)(0.11)(0.17)(0.22)(0.28)
6+ (0.02)(0.04)(0.07)(0.12)(0.06)(0.08)(0.11)(0.14)

The following are 2 shots (Chance of at least 1 Casualty/Chance of 2 Casualties)
2x3+ (0.14/0.01)(0.28/0.03)(0.42/0.09)(0.5/0.21)(0.35/0.05)(0.44/0.11)(0.49/0.2)(0.49/0.31)
2x4+ (0.1/0)(0.22/0.02)(0.35/0.05)(0.45/0.12)(0.28/0.03)(0.38/0.06)(0.44/0.11)(0.49/0.17)
2x5+ (0.07/0)(0.15/0.01)(0.25/0.02)(0.36/0.05)(0.2/0.01)(0.28/0.03)(0.35/0.05)(0.4/0.08)
2x6+ (0.04/0)(0.08/0)(0.14/0.01)(0.2/0.01)(0.1/0)(0.15/0.01)(0.2/0.01)(0.24/0.02)

Non-RA AV's - Falcon is best on any order
Inf (Both RA and Non-RA) - Fire Prism is best on any order

RA AV's
Advancing - Fire Prism is best vs all RA targets.
Sustain - Fire Prism holds an advantage vs 5+RA or better at range with the Falcon equal at 30cm vs 4+RA and better vs 5/6+RA
Double - Fire Prism best vs all RA targets.

Essentially The Fire Prism is best vs RA targets and Infantry (All types). The Fire Prism is generally better at doubling but the Falcons Sustain is fearsome at 30cm.

With the AP4+/AT2+ Lance stats I don't feel it's sufficient a threat over the falcon to warrant a higher cost given that the Falcon beats the Fire Prism vs the much more common non RA AV even when doubling.





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 Post subject: Problems with Craftworld Eldar list
PostPosted: Fri Nov 13, 2009 4:24 pm 
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Quote: (arkturas @ Nov. 13 2009, 10:01 )

With the AP4+/AT2+ Lance stats I don't feel it's sufficient a threat over the falcon to warrant a higher cost given that the Falcon beats the Fire Prism vs the much more common non RA AV even when doubling.

That's kind of my feeling, just because of the more common non-RA targets. Plus, when it comes to anti-infantry I usually have stacks of options, so the AT focus of Falcons is never much of an issue.

As it is I think Fire Prisms are a bit too context specific to cost accurately, as their worth will change depending on the abundance of RA on the board. Not that that's a bad thing as it applies to plenty of different units in the game. As such it's probably worth sticking with 300pts for 5 at current stats for a while and see how it pans out. It'll need an awful lot of play testing to tease out any subtle differences that would warrant a further price drop.

Now, about Dire Avenger Exarchs :)

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 Post subject: Problems with Craftworld Eldar list
PostPosted: Fri Nov 13, 2009 4:32 pm 
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Thanks for the mathhammer. Very insightful. I think, that the AT2+ lance then fits my picture of the prism nicely. I do also think, that 300 is appropriate because the FP still has the advantage of range wich should not be underestimated.

So...shall we playtest this stats further? I am looking forward to what Chroma thinks of this all.


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 Post subject: Problems with Craftworld Eldar list
PostPosted: Sat Nov 14, 2009 10:08 am 
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I think it is funny that no-one noticed in the current NET-EA compilation for the Eldar that Phantom and Warlock titans gained the 'Jump Packs' ability.

Now most people would take that as a typo. Yet in a tournament today, there were people there using Jump Packing Warlock/Phantom titans in the first round.

Combine that with the fact that they played (EA) MW as ALL attacks have MW and you have a pretty broken titan.

So, I guess this needs to be adjusted in the NET-EA Compendium.

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 Post subject: Problems with Craftworld Eldar list
PostPosted: Sat Nov 14, 2009 11:53 am 
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Good catch! Revenants should have jump packs, those titans always have. Warlocks / Phantoms, no! Possibly a copy and paste and then miss changing the detail error? (I do this often enough at work sending out similar emails).

And models with EA MW should most definitely only have those specific extra attacks as MW, not all their basic ones too. Warlock Titans are horrendously nasty enough in close combat anyway without making them silly powerful.

Hope the tournament was fun though?


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 Post subject: Problems with Craftworld Eldar list
PostPosted: Sat Nov 14, 2009 12:10 pm 
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Quote: (GlynG @ Nov. 14 2009, 19:53 )

Good catch! Revenants should have jump packs, those titans always have. Warlocks / Phantoms, no! Possibly a copy and paste and then miss changing the detail error? (I do this often enough at work sending out similar emails).

And models with EA MW should most definitely only have those specific extra attacks as MW, not all their basic ones too. Warlock Titans are horrendously nasty enough in close combat anyway without making them silly powerful.

Hope the tournament was fun though?

Yeah it was good. It was just interesting to see people playing by different rules. No doubt, there were a few Phantom/Warlocks to be seen.     :)

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 Post subject: Problems with Craftworld Eldar list
PostPosted: Sat Nov 14, 2009 12:15 pm 
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I'll get on it when I get back home.

Great meeting and playing you Down Under ladz... just wish my Orks could've put a little more fear into you all.  *laugh*

Now I'm going to go spend my remaining time in Oz with my wife.

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 Post subject: Problems with Craftworld Eldar list
PostPosted: Sat Nov 14, 2009 3:26 pm 
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Quote: (frogbear @ Nov. 14 2009, 09:08 )

I think it is funny that no-one noticed in the current NET-EA compilation for the Eldar that Phantom and Warlock titans gained the 'Jump Packs' ability.

Now most people would take that as a typo. Yet in a tournament today, there were people there using Jump Packing Warlock/Phantom titans in the first round.

Combine that with the fact that they played (EA) MW as ALL attacks have MW and you have a pretty broken titan.

So, I guess this needs to be adjusted in the NET-EA Compendium.

Wait, so people were using a document that is specifically labelled as a Draft, yet to be checked for errors, as the basis for a tournament? Are they mad?

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 Post subject: Problems with Craftworld Eldar list
PostPosted: Sat Nov 14, 2009 9:47 pm 
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Quote: (AxelFendersson @ Nov. 14 2009, 23:26 )

Wait, so people were using a document that is specifically labelled as a Draft, yet to be checked for errors, as the basis for a tournament? Are they mad?

It is also in the 2.1 Compendium.   :)

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 Post subject: Problems with Craftworld Eldar list
PostPosted: Sat Nov 14, 2009 10:06 pm 
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Quote: (arkturas @ Nov. 13 2009, 15:01 )

I've run the mathematics for the Fire Prism, Falcon and Firestorm

[snip)

Non-RA AV's - Falcon is best on any order
Inf (Both RA and Non-RA) - Fire Prism is best on any order

RA AV's
Advancing - Fire Prism is best vs all RA targets.
Sustain - Fire Prism holds an advantage vs 5+RA or better at range with the Falcon equal at 30cm vs 4+RA and better vs 5/6+RA
Double - Fire Prism best vs all RA targets.

Essentially The Fire Prism is best vs RA targets and Infantry (All types). The Fire Prism is generally better at doubling but the Falcons Sustain is fearsome at 30cm.

With the AP4+/AT2+ Lance stats I don't feel it's sufficient a threat over the falcon to warrant a higher cost given that the Falcon beats the Fire Prism vs the much more common non RA AV even when doubling.

Thanks for the effort put in, but I think you may need to review the maths here.
  • 3+ stats have been used on the 4+ line
  • The Falcon 'pulse' stats are all incorrect. Eg the odds for getting 1 or 2 hits at 2x 3+ are both 0.44 (with 0.12 chance of missing altogether). Against RA4+ armour, there is a 0.25 chance of the hit penetrating, so this should read (0.11/0.11), not (0.28/0.03)

    (PM me if you want the full stats and calculations)

I am also not sure that your conclusions are valid either, especially with respect to RA targets where the Fire Prisms are better than Falcons against anything but RA6+ targets.

For example, against 4+ armour a Fire Prism with AT4+ on 'Advance' orders has a 0.25 chance of getting 1 point of damage, while the Falcon with 2x AT4+ has 0.38 chance of scoring at least 1 point of damage. So apparently the Falcon is better at 'short' ranges. However in practice this actually means the Falcons have had to advance into range to get the shot in and so are now exposed to enemy counter-fire, while the FP have fired and then moved away (especially with the original 75cm range) so are now safe and can fire with full effect next turn. Indeed, at ranges over 45 cm, the Fire Prism should come into its own because the Falcons will usually need to double to stay 'safe', reducing their stats to 0.28 for at least 1 point of damage, which is the equivalent of the FP using an advance.

What I am trying to illustrate here is that IMHO Falcons and Fire Prisms have completely different roles and tactics. As the Eldar MBT, Falcons are intended to move forwards to shoot and support assaults so they advance and fire.

On the other hand, Fire Prisms epitomise the Eldar 'Hit-&-run' philiosophy. They are more akin to artillery providing distant fire, so they fire and retire (or 'shoot & scoot') because they are not intended to get close to the enemy. I might add that this is the main reason why I strongly recommend retaining the original 75cm range (albeit with reduced stats).

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 Post subject: Problems with Craftworld Eldar list
PostPosted: Sat Nov 14, 2009 10:23 pm 
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Just a few points:

On the Fire Prism: I see no good reason to go back to the 75cm range.  I recognise that this was their range when they were Deathstalker Prism Cannons, and in the original rules, but there is no background justification that I can find for them to have a greater range than the Scorpion (née Tempest, which used to have a range of 100cm in Space Marine), so I do not agree to 75cm on that basis.

As for linking, there was some debate among those of us working on a revised Eldar Codex for fifth edition in 40K about removing that, but in the end we voted for it to stay, at least for first reading, so it could be interesting to reconsider re-instating that in some way, although how it would work within the current rules, I wouldn't like to say, as I'm not experienced enough to start making up rules for Epic under the current system.

Finally, speaking of systems, there is absolutely no way that games of Space Marine took as long as some of you have been saying.  I was playing that game up until last year, and even when I was a beginner back in the early 1990s, I found it a pretty quick game to play, so I would encourage you not to knock it.  It was (and still is) in my opinion a very good set of rules.

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 Post subject: Problems with Craftworld Eldar list
PostPosted: Sun Nov 15, 2009 12:56 am 
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Quote: (Irisado @ Nov. 14 2009, 21:23 )

As for linking, there was some debate among those of us working on a revised Eldar Codex for fifth edition in 40K about removing that, but in the end we voted for it to stay, at least for first reading, so it could be interesting to reconsider re-instating that in some way, although how it would work within the current rules, I wouldn't like to say, as I'm not experienced enough to start making up rules for Epic under the current system.

As you are probably aware, there is a strong aversion to adding 'special rules' to the E:A, irrespective of whether they add flavour to the game. In this case I believe the original stats simulate the effect of 'linking weapons' thus avoiding the need for a 'Special rule'.

The thinking goes something like this:-
1) Start with the principle that the Fire Prism cannon is better at shooting than Falcon pulse laser, so AT3+ (rather than the proposed AT2+).

2) Assume that linking 4-5 units together will both increase the power and range, though it will also reduce the number of targets that are actually damaged. So the range increases to 75cm while the number of shots reduces to 3.

3) 3x shots at 3+ yields an average of 2.0 hits which is similar to 4-5x shots at 4+ (2.0 - 2.5 hits).

So in statistical terms, 'linking weapons' is similar to reducing the firepower from AT3+ to AT4+ while at the same time allowing for changes in formation size.

Finally, AT4+ at 75cm provides a more precise niche to the Fire Prism than AT3+ at 60cm because the additional range gives the formation more tactical flexibility. However, AT2+ makes the unit overpowered at any range as it encroaches on the capabilities of the Scorpion, and likewise 6x Fire Prisms provides too much anti-RA firepower (I can hear the Marines anguish as formations of terminators are wiped out by these things).

So please lets just keep the original 75cm range and AT4+ stats whilst increasing the formation size either allowing 3-5 units, or just a flat 5x unit for 300 points.




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 Post subject: Problems with Craftworld Eldar list
PostPosted: Sun Nov 15, 2009 1:31 am 
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I’m not convinced your assessment of Fire Prisms is accurate or that their role is that much different from that of Falcons. A Fire Prism is only a little longer ranged than a Falcon – 60â€Â


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