Argument for MW.

AT 4+ is a twin linked lascannon.

AP 3+ is Typhoon launcher.

Vindicator (when in range) is so much better in 40k than either that it's not funny. And the better armored the target is, the bigger the difference.

In my Wh40k-Stats-to-Epic-Translation-System the Demolisher trsn out to be AP3+/AT4+ Lance without Ignore Cover. But Lance can easily be replaced with Macro-weapon (in the notes! of the weapon so it hits better against Infantry).

The Demolisher is a weapon of superlatevs in Wh40k.
- It has Strength 10. The maximum in the game outside of Apocalypse.
- It has Armourpiercing 2 so ignoring all armour saves apart from invulnerable save which are only for some characters or some rare unit types like Terminators. Ap 1 exists but this would only give a +1 on the Vehicle Damage shart.
- It has a 5" Blast Template the biggest template in Wh40k outside of Apocalypse.
- It is an Ordnance weapo meaning that instead of rolling Strength+1D6 for armour penetration it rolls Strength+2D6 and picks the highest result.

Oh and the Demolishers range is only 24" thats 15cm in Epic. So if Macro-weapon turns out to be to powerful (quite possible on the Leman Russ Demolisher) then reduce it's range to 15cm.

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Why did I just know that Black Legion would suggest Lance?

It's worked in the System and i haven't changed it for ages  
I should update the System it seems. To much Lance would could easily be Macro-weapon.

Lance is good to represent, that heavy armour is made less effective. But the odd thing is that light armour remains unaffected.

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We held a community vote a while ago and MW status was defeated as a proposal.


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I have tested the following, over the years:



Too expensive, always underperforms.


Too slow, always underperforms.


As an upgrade, almost worth it, as a formation, not worth it.


As an upgrade, *just* about worth it (still tends to lose out to Hunters though in the great scramble for points). Formation cost of 250 is still unappealing, and I'd think about a formation cost of 225 points.

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Lance I think doesn't really work as a generic ability on the normal-MW-TK scale, because it does a very specific thing that doesn't really map well across the two games (apart from, obviously, Lance in 40k which actually maps to Epic Lance pretty well). Weapon strength scale tops out at 10 and armor values start at 10, and the two scales (smartly) don't intersect so no matter what S weapon are you shooting with, it WILL be more effective against lower armored vehicles.

Obviously if your system works for you I'm not going to tell you to change it

Well, if it still proved to be rubbish with the stats that community went with, maybe it's time to rethink that?

@vytzka: No Lance doesn't workin the system so i will revampit eventually.

As for giving the Vindicators Demolisher Macro-weapon then the Leman Russ Demolisher and Baneblade has to follow. While the Vindicator with MW performed good the LR Demolisher and Baneblade were overpowered for their points cost.
But personally i have no problem to adjust the points cost of the LR Demolisher and Baneblade if the Demolisher gun becomes Macro-weapon.
I have no problem too if the Demolisher gun becomes Macro-weapon that its range will be reduced to the more proper 15cm.

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As BlackLegion points out, that creates a problem with the Leman Russ Demolisher and the Baneblade ; According to the background and 40k rules the Baneblade and Demolisher are armed with *exactly the same weapon*.

There's no wiggle room to rename the weapon there, if the Vindicator gets MW status, then so does the Leman Russ Demolisher.

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Demolisher is too good? I must have been thinking of another Leman Russ variant that gets bad rep (Executioner?).

Anyway, you can call it Vindicator Demolisher Cannon (hardly a precedent here) if you don't want to cascade the changes into the IG list.

I'm not saying that I WANT MACRO WEAPON NAOW, merely that it shouldn't be dismissed if that's what it takes to finally make Vindicators useful after how many years.

Though I still think 30cm move is a priority.

edit edit edit edit: Cities of Death has building-destroying siege ordnance Stratagem which can be used by Strength 10 guns. So not all Demolisher shells are created the same, even if all cannons are.

Are people taking a lot of Leman Russ Demolishers these days?  Shadowswords (and the other IG Super-Heavies) still seem to out-number Baneblades.

Why would a single MW shot on either of those chassis be a bad thing?  It's still only 30cm range.

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The MW Demolisher was tested and found to be silly-good IIRC, considerably better than the standard Leman Russ that is supposed to cost the same points as an Upgrade (and the same points cost in the Minervan & Krieg lists too).

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You didn't do thick rear armour as well? (Though I found it to be a slight air insert boost.)


Ha. Well many increasing think it should be
300 Warhound
275 Tacticals
275 Annihilators
250 Destructors (FF5+)
225 Vindicators

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Doesn't match the background, or 40k rules.



I pretty much agree with that, though I see the Destructor with FF4+ as only being worth that much too.  

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Weapon stats in epic are slightly odd on the whole as they have legacy connections to how weapons worked in previous versions of epic and 40k.

The Demolisher is the biggest gun the SM use. The only MW is the Multimelta, so is the Demolisher better than that and should have MW. The other option is to give it really high AP/AT values, which would be AP2+/AT3+ or AP2+/AT2+, both with ignore cover.

It certainly needs a speed boost at the very least.