That is very well possible!

Especially if she plays Nidzilla or lash spam chaos. And I wouldn't expect anything better out of a woman of such ill reputation.

Oddly enough she play Dark Angels. She played before I did even. A bit scary when you think about it. I was lost in the silly fantasy realm at the time. I'm a fan of the DA for there fluff but I happen to play/have most 40k armies even tho the just sit and collect dust now.

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Sorry the other two threads are army list specific, this was to compare and hopefully join the 2 (3) lists but its turned into a more interesting discussion on what makes Dark Angels different.

Talking of the third list I think of the EpicUK marine lists the only dissapointment was the Dark Angel one. I can't see any reason for it. As far as I can tell it took away warhounds, fighters, bike and land speeder formations and made devestators less effective (well taking the overall pressure of points on activations for marines). In return it got a ravenwing formation that can't do air ops or the assaults that bikes and speeders can carry out. There is no particular theme other than assuming perhaps everyone knows who Dark Angels are. All the lists proposed and current have a theme, wether its a re-org for fluff or a distinctive style of play.

Codex (Ultramarines) - Warhounds and thunderhawks
Black Templars - Fleet (can optimise for air and drops) non codexish
Blood Angels - Assault marines, other options make them more cc orientated
Imperial Fists - Siegeworks (defence and non drop pod attack - actually very hard to do)
Iron Hands - 6 million dollar marines (marines with invulnerable saves, prob dreds with inspiring) non codexish
Raven Guard - Light (heavy) infantry, recon, lightning attacks, drop pods
Salamanders - Heavy mech, FF orientated, non codex
Scions of Iron - Marine Tank list, non codex
Space Wolves - Maybe light mech, drop ops, non codex
White Scars - We ride into battle on well driven bikes


Dark Angels - What for them? I would  say elites and stubborn/unforgiven etc etc, and in practical terms have some fearless to keep their infantry in there and fighting after other marines have to bug out. Throw in the ravenwing in their scout/locate role and I think it becomes a distinctive force rounded out with a bit of nostalga (getting the term ironwing in and the plasma options/mortis/other tweaks).

On one hand the fearless is a tough nut to crack, on the other there's no warhounds.

I like incidentally your idea with giving assault bikes scout. In a 4/2/2 formation it satisfies BL's desire for it to be a scouting formation (1/2 scout means garrissoning and no massive scout screen to overcome) and provides an interesting mixed ability formation that can assault from a forward position. With no jink, walker, leader etc the price can be kept down to as the list doesn't have the resilance that makes a small activation force viable.

So what are everyone's thoughts? Moving away from specifics and list comparisons and combining, how can a distinct character be achieved? Is the one outlined above fitting the bill, or is something else needed?

Edit and I'm all for no allies. I think its very distinctive and a variant codex list needs that. 1/4 doesn't really work as at 3000 points its still 2 warhounds and a thunderbolt squadron. 1/5 does force the choice of 2 warhounds / 1 warhound, 1-2 thunderbolt squadrons. Still not much difference though compared to none.

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Dreadnoughts

The idea here is to add a bit of character to this underused unit and contribute to the warhound removal compensation fund. Plus its a DA only unit as far as I know.

In my head the split between Deathwing Dred and Mortis Dred was the following.

Driven first by the desire to ensure only 2 models were used (so to facilitate the counts as rule as everyone should have normal dred and two heavy weapons dreds) and second by a background justification that came to mind, that being if you almost die and become a dred you break down into one of two categories. Stable enough to know the secret, or to already know. And not able to be trusted. For the latter they get a pure shooty role to contribute to them being far away from the fallen action.
The split was also because the proposed stats were 2 twin autocannon which I believe to be superior to the current Hellfire dreadnought. So one fearless dred was called for to balance it (for 75 points each).

Study of the forgeworld site reveals there are several possible weapon fits. I've graded them relative to the current Hellfire fire support dred.

Weaker
2 Twin Heavy bolter

Maybe on par
2 Missile launchers
2 Twin Lascannon (I reckon better than the 2 missile launchers)

Stronger
2 Twin Autocannon

Ranked against them for the other half of the pair would be in order of I think ability, lowest to highest.

Normal AC/PF Dred
PF dred with a plasma cannon with the slow firing stats I hate so much
AC/PF Dred with fearless

Points wise I reckon the stronger version would have to be 75, but the 'slightly' better version could be 50 points still as its in no way an automatic choice. Hell give the player the choice of missiles or las cannon in case I'm off on what's the better weapon (you too can have a dreadnought armed in the same way as a devastator stand)!

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I shall address this point as I'm thrilled somebody else read the salamanders list and who knows, maybe played a game.

Sallies get that for a few reasons. In short it is to reflect favoured weapons, fighting style (firefights), non codex organisation (larger companies so a few larger formations). It is also because the MM is an awful weapon and gives a natural preference for air assaults (against the background of the sallies as the major tactic) which is just dull.
Hence no all MM formation.
The major massive downside is you have to scratch build or do something to mark them out. This is a sod.

Now for old timers plasma guns are easier as our orks carry them, but not everyone has a surplus pile of greenskins and its still fiddy.

As plasma weapons are potentially not as awkward as MM I'm all for a unit type having all or nothing as it makes life a lot easier.

Now plasma weapons in general I am in favour of for DA as with the dropping of warhounds they lose a significant source of MW firepower and should again have options to replace and increased availability of AT firepower I think does this.

Stats wise one of the reasons I'm keen of 5/5 is there is no book-keeping and its a straight balanced switch with missile launchers.

If we are stuck with the highly fiddly 4/4 slow fire   the only place it can go is Devestators as its too much of a headache for the tacticals. Now I can't see (Rug perhaps can educate me) how this is a good thing, especially if it makes a formation more expensive (I know I don't think they should have them but what's better, a plasma 4/4 dev formation or a warhound? Hell throw in a free air deployment and the warhound is still heaps better). And I've just realised the poor buggers get FF4+. How are they worth 300 points, I just can't see it. 300 points, 2/3's as good as tacticals at supporting an assault and get to fire on average once per game unless the opponent is kind enough to move forward far enough to let you double and fire turn one, twiddle thumbs turn 2 and hopefully be alive enough to fire again turn 3.

Hell maybe it can be a tactical weapon, thinking about it they often fire once in a game anyway, its less a change in firepower than it is for devestators and as long as the FF doesn't change they wouldn't be as bad.

To point such a beast though someone would have to explain the advantages of the EpicUK devs and how you realise them.

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1. Actually Codex Space Marines says that Dreadnoughts may be equipped with two Twon Autocannons. Oddly this isn't possible with Codex Dark Angels.

2. Tacticals with slow-firing Plasma Cannons are easier to track down than Devastators as Devastators have the same problem as Leman Russ Demolishers when firing only half the Plasma Cannons.

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From the FW site 'to make Mortis pattern Dreadnoughts for Dark Angels and their successor chapters.'

Maybe the design team don't agree with FW over this issue



Good point Shirly.

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General Plumer, 191x

Codex: Space Marine quad autocannon dreadnought is not really Mortis, just something included in the new codex (followed by no small amount of bitching by Dark Angels players, as if it was actually any good).

Mortis can take a pair of twinlinked lascannons, twinlinked autocannons, missile launchers, assault cannons, and probably other stuff as well.

Sute but the dual Twin Autocannon Codex Dreadnought looks suspicioulsy like a Dark Angels Mortis Dreadnought with dual Twin Autocanons

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Answered above above about age not nessecerily being the only deathwing membership criteria.

I thought there was an inner circle of characters, so not all chaplains were interigator chaplains and so on.

You wish to axe the landing craft as well? *Sob* Queue pedantic list of stuff that is not mentioned anywhere in 40k fluff

So what of Rugs idea where you have the attack bikes and speeders with scout and the bikes without. Its still a scout formation, it can garrisson, its a different way to get those bikes into combat and with the lack of leader, jink and walker etc keeps the cost down.

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"Gentlemen, we may not make history tomorrow, but we shall certainly change the geography."
General Plumer, 191x

Sure but there isn't a away to differentiate a Dreadnought from a Daethwing Dreadnought in 40k other than paintjob  Essentially ALL Dreadnoughts are Fealress in Wh40k as they don't have a Leadership value (same as vehicles).
In Epic this isn't taken into account so we canonly judge from a fluff standpoint of view.


Looke dit up and you are right. At least there is a difference between Chaplain and Interrogator Chaplain.


Well the LC is a completely new unit added by the original developers of Epic: Armageddon.
The Plasma Cannon Predator ha sno such backup  


So why should the more cumbersome Attack Bikes have Scout and the more nimble Bikes not? I would rather include a special ability which enables them to have Scout but without the 10cm ZoC.

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There is a general formation size that appears to run through the general SM list and I assume most of the derivatives. That is the formation is 10 or 20 marines (Tacticals are 30). I think for Ravenwing there should be at least an option to go to 20 marines assuming the start formation is something else (something like 6 Bikes, 2 Atk Bikes, 2 Tornadoes).

Also I think that RW Landspeeder configuration is somewhat malleable in what we choose. It's still unclear who drives what. Currently it's RW everything but I know the older infomation is the Tornado (AC/HB) only with standard marines in the other configurations and Typhoons.

I still can't go with the No Allies rules. Lower Points limits I think is the best option. In a general combined force for a full war the DA will have Titans and Navy around. I can't see them saying the DA are over there so Titans stay away and Thunderbolts don't provide any air cover. Now if this is meant to be a DA stand alone force then maybe the Navy/Titans should be stripped from the other stand alone Marine lists too.

The variant lists are always meant to be the chapter at its most different and diffinative.

So if you wanted to field DA with Titans just use one of the other codex lists. In essence with such close observation going on they don't hunt for the fallen and do their best to look as normal as possible to not arouse suspicion.

However the list is meant to be when it do or die for the DA, so screw the Imperium, they can't be around to find out and its off to war.

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General Plumer, 191x

I have to say is there a better way to differentiate  two models? That one is green and that one is white and fearless?


I think you will find it was in the last version of epic and what's more was designed by GW and approved by the design studio



One very simple reason, you don't require a special rule and the formation still acts as scouts. As for justification, come on this is Epic, one reason I play is you can justify most things. In this case the attack bikes have a fantastic sensor suite, uplinked to orbital assets, allowing the formation to be several moves ahead of the enemy

You get the ability you want, but in a way that doesn't require special rules and minimises the number of 10cm ZoC guys in the formation.

Plus attack bikes are the first to die so won't be an eyesore for long

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"Gentlemen, we may not make history tomorrow, but we shall certainly change the geography."
General Plumer, 191x

Well go for it but i have still strong reservation against the Plasma Predator.  

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