Quote: (Dobbsy @ Sep. 17 2009, 23:32 )
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Comparing Devastators (who have worse ranged weapons) and Crisis suits, that both cost 250 points is also in favor of Crisises (Crisii?), as 4 dev stands with 3+ FF will cause 2.6(6) hits and 0.8(8) casualty, while Crisii will return fire with 1.3(3) hit that are automatic casualties
So essentially 1 hit each?
If you look at percentages, the Crisis formation, unit-for-unit, will be causing 50% more casualties than the Devestator units will be causing...
...and this is in an area of the game (firefight) where the Tau are supposed to be weak.
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We want Crisis Suits to be better in Firefights than Devestators?
Why are Devs costed at 250?
Because of SR5 and ATSKNF...
Their ranged shooting is greatly inferior to Crisis Suits however, as are their movement speeds on the ground, their armour save, and they of course lack the ability to move after shooting, or gain the benefit of Markerlights and Coordinated Fire, all of which should cancel out ATSKNF nicely.
So do you really want Crisis Suits to be better in a Firefight than Space Marine Devestators?
They'll need to be 300pts at minimum for 4 units if so, if not more.
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[quote]Are you poo-pooing MW FF simply because you don't like the idea (in the past you had your army smashed by them etc)?
Tau in Epic aren't supposed to be Firefight specialists, and make no mistake, MWFF 5+ is a fantastic firefight stat, as noted, effectively better than FF3+ against targets with 4+ or better armour saves.
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What is your true reasoning?
I don't think the first choice of Crisis Suits attacking an enemy formation should be to
Engage, instead it should be
Sustain Fire, or
Advance, or
Coordinated Fire, or whatever.
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I think my arguments in the past have been fairly objective. I'm not campaigning simply because I want my army to be the best here. I'm doing it because I think it's warranted and a fair representation of what the unit should do.
You think that Crisis Suits should be better in a Firefight than equal points worth of Tactical or Devestator Marines, as well as being able to out-shoot them significantly at range?
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Your representation seems an arbitrary rationale. "Just because..." sort of thing. If needs be you can bump their cost up if you truly think they need it. I'd wear that - but in light of your two above posts....?
I would see a MWFF-enabled Crisis Suit formation in the Tau army being worth at least 300pts for 4 units, quite possibly even more. They would be a fantastic formation with very few weaknesses.
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OK, in comparison, can you explain to me why Fire Dragons, Wraithguard, Land Speeders etc all get MWFF?
Because they are Firefight-specialist units in armies that rely on Firefights to break the enemy.
On a slightly more fuzzy note, all three are notable as being armed with only a single weapon type, not mixed weapons like the Crisis Suits.
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In response to the discussion regarding 5+MWFF better than 4+FF etc etc, can you please give the statistics for a 4xcrisis 5+ MWFF formation? cheers.
It's been given above.
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If you can give me, what I think, is a strong reasoning for no MW FF I shall stop asking for it and I won't post again.
I think it may hurt the Tau theme to give them a formation that is better than Space Marine Devestators in a Firefight situation.
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EDIT- should I bother arguing this at all if you're mind is made up E&C? Will any argument sway your thinking?
I always remain flexible, and can be convinced by reasoned debate.
