Login |  Register |  FAQ
   
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 91 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7  Next

God specific lists and Fearless

 Post subject: God specific lists and Fearless
PostPosted: Wed Aug 26, 2009 11:34 am 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Sat Aug 02, 2008 3:22 pm
Posts: 5682
Location: Australia
Quote: (Hena @ 26 Aug. 2009, 21:28 )

I know that I have little to no interest in playing against all fearless armies.

Noted. I know they will not please everyone.

I respect your thoughts however Hena, and always keep a close watch on your development lists as well.

Just realise that if armies do however attempt to move away from Fearless, in order to remain balanced and playable, they may need to encroach just a little on the Stubborn rule.

:)




_________________
Frogbear is responsible for...
Previous World Eaters
Previous Emperor's Children
Previous Death Guard
Previous Imperial Fists
Previous Chaos Squats


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: God specific lists and Fearless
PostPosted: Wed Aug 26, 2009 2:34 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jul 26, 2005 8:27 pm
Posts: 451
Location: Finland
Back in the Good-ole-days when Death Guard was Fearless I had great time playing with them, maybe I just was bad player or something, but I allways had to strugle to win and won just 1 out of 3 games on average.

Pricey units and low activation count was my biggest problem, but those DG guys felt like proppa Plague Marines, you had to kill them to stop them attacking you, you could not just spook them out. Yeah, there were few of them and they crawled across battlefield without transports and it definedly had the feeling of playing Death Guard.

EDIT
I actually attended one tournament with fearless DG

Retinue
 + Demonic Pact
 + Demon Prince
Retinue
 + Demonic Pact
Armoured Company
 - 7 Landraiders
Chosen
 - 7 Chosen
Ravager
Swiftdeath
Deamon Pool
 - 9 Lesser Demons



I was fifth out of ten. Ahh, good times.




_________________
Eradication of Earth's
Population loves Polaris


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: God specific lists and Fearless
PostPosted: Wed Aug 26, 2009 3:01 pm 
Purestrain
Purestrain

Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2003 10:52 pm
Posts: 9617
Location: Nashville, TN, USA
Quote: (frogbear @ 26 Aug. 2009, 11:18 )

So did anyone else have some personal experiences or wisdom to impose in regards to all Fearless armies, or are they now an accepted part of the game and correctly priced?

In my experience, they are mostly priced appropriately from a balance perspective.

The issue, however, is not balance.  The issue is whether playing against them is fun and whether Fearless makes the armies "gamey."

Most of the time, small formations of Fearless units are not a problem.  Their ability to be an effective barrier is limited.  Going around them isn't too much trouble and all they do is stop a formation near the limit of its movement from being able to claim objectives.  That's not unreasonable considering the ability.

However, when you have several small formations of 2-4 units in close proximity or a large formation of 6 or so, they can form very large barriers.  Those barriers are nearly impossible to shift and very difficult to shoot a hole through.  At that point, it starts to become somewhat "gamey" and it can be highly frustrating - not in a good "This is a real struggle" kind of way, but in a bad "This is just not fair" kind of way.

_________________
Neal


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: God specific lists and Fearless
PostPosted: Wed Aug 26, 2009 6:09 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother

Joined: Sun May 24, 2009 9:50 am
Posts: 103
I have experienced playing with and playing against a mostly fearless army (I tried to do a theamed Chaos list before switching to LordI's (then Hena's) Death Guard. Neal's comments echo this experience. I cannot comment on their 'balance' or not (not that I care too much about that, I only care about the 'fun factor') but I can tell you that I found them to be neither fun nor interesting. Fearless is great for an elite unit (or two) in a list, but a whole army 'breaking the game'? Not to my personal liking, or the liking of my gaming group.





Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: God specific lists and Fearless
PostPosted: Wed Aug 26, 2009 6:10 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Sat Nov 05, 2005 12:13 am
Posts: 8711
Location: Leipzig, Germany, Europe, Sol III, Orion Arm, Milky Way, Local Group, Virgo Supercluster, Universe
An idea: How about that each of the Cult armies would have a specialrule that only applies to formations which (all) Fearless units? In case of the World Eaters it is the Blood Rage, Emperors Children could have something being Extatic, DeathGuard being Relentless and Tousand Sons being Slow and Purposeful.

This special rule would replace the effects of Fearless but would add another ability with merits and drawbacks for the formation.

_________________
We are returned!
http://www.epic-wargaming.de/


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: God specific lists and Fearless
PostPosted: Wed Aug 26, 2009 11:04 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Sat Aug 02, 2008 3:22 pm
Posts: 5682
Location: Australia
Quote: (Nicodemus @ 27 Aug. 2009, 00:34 )

Back in the Good-ole-days when Death Guard was Fearless I had great time playing with them, maybe I just was bad player or something, but I allways had to strugle to win and won just 1 out of 3 games on average.

This has been my exact experience as well   :;):

_________________
Frogbear is responsible for...
Previous World Eaters
Previous Emperor's Children
Previous Death Guard
Previous Imperial Fists
Previous Chaos Squats


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: God specific lists and Fearless
PostPosted: Wed Aug 26, 2009 11:05 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Sat Aug 02, 2008 3:22 pm
Posts: 5682
Location: Australia
Quote: (BlackLegion @ 27 Aug. 2009, 04:10 )

An idea: How about that each of the Cult armies would have a specialrule that only applies to formations which (all) Fearless units? In case of the World Eaters it is the Blood Rage, Emperors Children could have something being Extatic, DeathGuard being Relentless and Tousand Sons being Slow and Purposeful.

This special rule would replace the effects of Fearless but would add another ability with merits and drawbacks for the formation.

It isd pretty much what most of us are looking at, yet Fearless fills the gap till we find something.

_________________
Frogbear is responsible for...
Previous World Eaters
Previous Emperor's Children
Previous Death Guard
Previous Imperial Fists
Previous Chaos Squats


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: God specific lists and Fearless
PostPosted: Wed Aug 26, 2009 11:08 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Sat Aug 02, 2008 3:22 pm
Posts: 5682
Location: Australia
Quote: (alakazam @ 27 Aug. 2009, 04:09 )

Fearless is great for an elite unit (or two) in a list, but a whole army 'breaking the game'? Not to my personal liking, or the liking of my gaming group.

alakazam: Just a few questions to gain your thoughts

1. In a cult specific list, what would you term as an elite unit for this purpose?

2. Will it be in line with the specialist forces of cult marines in other lists?

3. How would you account for Daemonic controlled engines? Do they have fearless?

Interested to see your views on the above.  :D

_________________
Frogbear is responsible for...
Previous World Eaters
Previous Emperor's Children
Previous Death Guard
Previous Imperial Fists
Previous Chaos Squats


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: God specific lists and Fearless
PostPosted: Thu Aug 27, 2009 4:10 am 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Sat Aug 02, 2008 3:22 pm
Posts: 5682
Location: Australia
Quote: (BlackLegion @ 27 Aug. 2009, 04:10 )

An idea: How about that each of the Cult armies would have a specialrule that only applies to formations which (all) Fearless units? In case of the World Eaters it is the Blood Rage,

In regards to this, if you go back to what World Eaters are known for, it is the close combat and how scary they are to face in this regard. If Fearless is too 'gamey' as advised by neilhunt, and causes so many problems, what would people think of removing Fearless in place of Blood Rage as BlackLegion has suggested with the below rules (only attributing it to berzerkers at the moment for discussions sake):

*********************************************
Remove Fearless in place of....

1. On a charge action initiated by World Eater Berzerkers, a Berserker may roll an additional attack on the first round of combat.

2. In an assault(only), berzerkers may make an armour save vs any extra hits suffered for losing the combat.
*********************************************

This would also take in the observation stated above:
when you have several small formations of 2-4 units in close proximity or a large formation of 6 or so, they can form very large barriers.  Those barriers are nearly impossible to shift and very difficult to shoot a hole through.  At that point, it starts to become somewhat "gamey" and it can be highly frustrating - not in a good "This is a real struggle" kind of way, but in a bad "This is just not fair" kind of way.


So in effect, they

Good Points
1. Become good on the first round of a combat that they initiate,
2. Can potentially have some staying power within a combat

Detriment on losing Fearless
1. They become more susceptible to shooting when broken
2. They have to move out of 15cm of an enemy unit after losing a combat
3. They have a chance of losing models via extra hits

So what do people think?




_________________
Frogbear is responsible for...
Previous World Eaters
Previous Emperor's Children
Previous Death Guard
Previous Imperial Fists
Previous Chaos Squats


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: God specific lists and Fearless
PostPosted: Thu Aug 27, 2009 4:22 am 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Wed Oct 05, 2005 1:24 am
Posts: 4499
Location: Melbourne, Australia
In an assault(only), berzerkers may make an armour save vs any extra hits suffered for losing the combat

So you're essentially using Stubborn? The extra attack is a data sheet entry correct?

Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: God specific lists and Fearless
PostPosted: Thu Aug 27, 2009 4:35 am 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Sat Aug 02, 2008 3:22 pm
Posts: 5682
Location: Australia
Quote: (Dobbsy @ 27 Aug. 2009, 14:22 )

In an assault(only), berzerkers may make an armour save vs any extra hits suffered for losing the combat

So you're essentially using Stubborn? The extra attack is a data sheet entry correct?

The extra attack is not a datasheet entry. It would be part of the Bloodrage Rule

As for stubborn, I believe they get it for shooting attacks when broken as well making that a much better skill (for that purpose) than what is proposed here. So no, it is not essentially using Stubborn.

What this proposal does is make World Eaters susceptible again as a broken unit. The goal is for them to not become broken by making sure they get the charge.

Personally I think it is elegant enough and in line within the current rules to work quite effectively.

I would however be interested in other people's views as well based on their own experiences.




_________________
Frogbear is responsible for...
Previous World Eaters
Previous Emperor's Children
Previous Death Guard
Previous Imperial Fists
Previous Chaos Squats


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: God specific lists and Fearless
PostPosted: Thu Aug 27, 2009 10:04 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Sat Aug 02, 2008 3:22 pm
Posts: 5682
Location: Australia
so no feedback at all from the veterans out there?  :;):

_________________
Frogbear is responsible for...
Previous World Eaters
Previous Emperor's Children
Previous Death Guard
Previous Imperial Fists
Previous Chaos Squats


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: God specific lists and Fearless
PostPosted: Thu Aug 27, 2009 10:07 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jun 24, 2005 3:06 pm
Posts: 9684
Location: Montréal, QC, Canada
Quote: (frogbear @ 27 Aug. 2009, 22:04 )

so no feedback at all from the veterans out there?  :;):

FB, you've got to learn some patience... it hasn't even been a day since your last post in here, there's a lot of slow, old men on this forum.   :))

_________________
"EPIC: Total War" Lead Developer

Now living in Boston... any EPIC players want to meet up?


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 91 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7  Next


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 72 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  


Powered by phpBB ® Forum Software © phpBB Group
CoDFaction Style by Daniel St. Jules of Gamexe.net