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God specific lists and Fearless

 Post subject: God specific lists and Fearless
PostPosted: Tue Aug 25, 2009 2:23 pm 
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From a different perspective Frogbear, an all fearless army could be fun to play against but what if it's not fun to play with..? As you mention you've yet to win a game with your WEs. I'm pretty sure other people will not be that keen on investing time, and more importantly money, on an army that is known to be a loser 99% of the time.

Personally, I'd prefer to find a medium that everyone knows is a challenge and fun at the same time. I think it's possible to come up with something to replace fearless that both sides can enjoy. It's why I'm trying hard to find an alternative to the fearlessness of the WE. I really think the latest discussion over in my Blood Rage proposal thread has merit. I think it could be trialled at least to see how it works. Up to trialling it yourself at all?


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 Post subject: God specific lists and Fearless
PostPosted: Tue Aug 25, 2009 2:33 pm 
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Quote: (Dobbsy @ 26 Aug. 2009, 00:23 )

From a different perspective Frogbear, an all fearless army could be fun to play against but what if it's not fun to play with..? As you mention you've yet to win a game with your WEs.

Incorrect. I have won some games yet I would not count them as true wins myself.

I have also been trying out different units and not taking fully competative lists as I am trying different options. So as someone that has given some extensive tests so far, I can say honestly that the above statement is quite false. When the list is finished it should be just as enjoyable as any other list.

As for other rules, I am yet to see something (example: as is being discussed in yours) that does not work outside of the established rules, or that could not be taken advantage of by certain units. Hence why I moved it away from your thread to get some discussion going.

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 Post subject: God specific lists and Fearless
PostPosted: Tue Aug 25, 2009 2:41 pm 
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Quote: (Dobbsy @ 26 Aug. 2009, 00:23 )

Up to trialling it yourself at all?

I would if I did not disagree with it so strongly - the direction it is now adopting.

My efforts will be placed on the lists I am working on with Morgan as I work better when I am getting some feedback and movement rather than just theory. Sorry dude.

Like I said, I will a look at how you go, however if I get the time to game I would rather do it with ones where I get the most satisfaction and enjoyment rather than continuosly test theory rules that I feel will not work. If it changes direction, I just may incorporate some test games to help out.

So let's get back to Fearless as an established rule in Epic, and the armies that use it for a majority of it's units.

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 Post subject: God specific lists and Fearless
PostPosted: Tue Aug 25, 2009 2:51 pm 
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There are a number of potentially all fearless armies - Titan Legions; OGBM; certain Chaos lists; Grey Knights, etc  Are you guys really saying appropriately all fearless armies like these are not fun in their own way to play with/against? Even if the lists are pointed correctly to pay for this ability?

If that is really the case - and I'm not necessarily convinced - then I do wonder whether the fearless rule may perhaps be written a bit too good generally and should perhaps be changed. I can see Fearless units not having to flee from combat or take damage for coming under fire but IMO they should still be some risk of damage from loosing an assault, perhaps half damage rounding down or roll a dice for each point of damage they'd normally take and they do actually take a point of damage for each 1 rolled or something.





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 Post subject: God specific lists and Fearless
PostPosted: Tue Aug 25, 2009 2:54 pm 
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Quote: (Hena @ 26 Aug. 2009, 00:23 )

I've learned to hate playing against all fearless mainly due to reason TRC posted. Also they are very good in creating a blocking formation to stop movement to objectives on turn 3 (scout + fearless was way, way annoying).

The game just stops being enjoyable is main thing however as a lot of the game revolves on broken being vulnerable.

I understand the whole blocking formations, however this is nothing that any broken formation cannot do with less ability no doubt. However those units are generally alot cheaper and would generally allow another unit to be taken per two-three Fearless units I would estimate.

Scout + fearless: Interesting. never looked at that. I should try that one   :;):

The broken and vulnerable thing: I understand what you are sayimng in this regard, however I will mention (World Eaters specifically) that the 'feel no pain' aspect of the rule could be used as the reason. I have suggested armour saves on extra hits rather than them just being ignored, however you yourself took that as too close to the Stubborn rule. So either way, one cannot win in this respect. If this was adopted however, I would want to see a cheaper price for units as well.

With what you mentioned, would you not try and change your tactics to combat fearless rather than just take it on as a normal force? It is not at a stage where you have to design your army to take on an all Fearless army. Any competrative force should be able to do it. So this being the case, and without any evidence of all Fearless armies wiunning a swathe of battles, I still fail to see the major issue.

Like the nid list when people play it, they instantly dislike it and find errors with it because they lose to it and do not understand how to deafeat it. After developing a stratergy or two to do this however, it becomes acceptable. Would not this be the same case with all Fearless armies?

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 Post subject: God specific lists and Fearless
PostPosted: Tue Aug 25, 2009 2:56 pm 
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I'd much rather solve this in the list rather than change a core rule.

Assuming the problem with all fearless armies is pointing them so they have enough activations to win, without becoming too powerful is the core of the problem.

Personally I'd look to see if the entire army has to be fearless from a background/unit playability point of view. If they do all have to be fearless then they should be costed appropriately and the player has to find a way to win with a low activation count.


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 Post subject: God specific lists and Fearless
PostPosted: Tue Aug 25, 2009 3:02 pm 
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Quote: (Mephiston @ 26 Aug. 2009, 00:56 )

I'd much rather solve this in the list rather than change a core rule.

Totally agree  :agree:

My main goal for reviving this thread however is to gain feedback from those who have discussed this all before over the years. Too many times discussions go ahead without thinking about what has happened before, or why things have reached the condition that they are in.

Also I personally like people's personal experiences and their thoughts regarding these experiences

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 Post subject: God specific lists and Fearless
PostPosted: Tue Aug 25, 2009 3:37 pm 
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Quote: (Hena @ 26 Aug. 2009, 01:24 )

However in turn 3 the armies hitting power is usually down and shifting (eg. removing) a fearless block requires a lot of firepower if it has saves as chaos marines would have. Also you don't need a lot of blocking formation as  having broken and fearless formation on your blitz can easily prevent that from being taken (especially with scout).

How about this rule when claiming objectives:

Units from broken formations or from formations that have rallied that end phase cannot capture or contest objectives.

I know they retain their ZoC, and scouts can be a pain so they are an exception (I so have to try this combination), however unless they surround an objective, they cannot really stop the opponent (make it really difficult - yes) from getting 1 stand within 15cm of the objective especially with a March action.

I just realised that rule today.

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 Post subject: God specific lists and Fearless
PostPosted: Tue Aug 25, 2009 4:07 pm 
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Quote: (Hena @ 26 Aug. 2009, 01:46 )

Whole point is that you block the movement to objective or spread out far enough to cover the entire 15cm area which allows taking that objective.

Fair enough point.

I would counter with the fact that a broken 'assault' fearless unit (from my most recent experiences) only has about 0-3 units left making this (again) quite hard. It would also depend on where they are charging from (the front or behind) to make this a reality.

All extraneous circumstances that cannot be counted as a definite as justification for it being an issue. There will be some games where this 'may' be an issue, but definitely not all.

Point taken however.  :D

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 Post subject: God specific lists and Fearless
PostPosted: Tue Aug 25, 2009 4:22 pm 
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Quote: (frogbear @ 25 Aug. 2009, 10:37 )

How about this rule when claiming objectives:

Units from broken formations or from formations that have rallied that end phase cannot capture or contest objectives.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't that rule already exist?

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 Post subject: God specific lists and Fearless
PostPosted: Tue Aug 25, 2009 4:26 pm 
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Quote: (Dwarf Supreme @ 25 Aug. 2009, 16:22 )

Quote: (frogbear @ 25 Aug. 2009, 10:37 )

How about this rule when claiming objectives:

Units from broken formations or from formations that have rallied that end phase cannot capture or contest objectives.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't that rule already exist?

Yes, apart from They shall not pass, rallied formations count for this one goal.


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 Post subject: God specific lists and Fearless
PostPosted: Wed Aug 26, 2009 12:15 am 
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Quote: (Dwarf Supreme @ 26 Aug. 2009, 02:22 )

Quote: (frogbear @ 25 Aug. 2009, 10:37 )

How about this rule when claiming objectives:

Units from broken formations or from formations that have rallied that end phase cannot capture or contest objectives.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't that rule already exist?

Yes. I just realised it existed for a 3rd time   :sigh:   and I thought it was appropriate as a counter to the Fearless being too strong because they 'prevent access to objectives' discussion.

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 Post subject: God specific lists and Fearless
PostPosted: Wed Aug 26, 2009 11:18 am 
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So did anyone else have some personal experiences or wisdom to impose in regards to all Fearless armies, or are they now an accepted part of the game and correctly priced?




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