As i said above, i think they make an excellent combination with firedragons or dire avengers to assasinate the enemy's elite troops.  

Elite troopers tend to come in much smaller fm sizes and are usually well armoured and powerful.  E.g. Terminators, obliterators, wraithguard etc.

This is where a small no of high power attacks are most useful.  Banshees compliment the dragons marvelously because it gives the opportunity to reduce the no of incoming high strength attacks to what is a relatively poorly armoured fm.

Hmm, so you are also including units with an extra attack in the 'assasination' list.

I can certainly see that they would be good against WraithGuard, WraithLords (and possibly even Striking scorpions) which are usually positioned on the outside of formations to act as a shield against enemy shooting.

However I am less sure about Obliterators, defilers, Commisars (or other leaders) etc which are usually positioned on the inside of formations for their own protection. How do you propose to get at these - or do you just wait for the Fire Dragons / Dire Avengers to get to work?

_________________
"Play up and play the game"

Vitai lampada
Sir Hemry Newbolt

Obliterators are still surrounded by elite infantry though (CSM).  Having to face 2 less (On average) return shots from CSM/daemons is better IMO than the extra point of armour you get from the scorpions (Who will also statistically kill 2 CSM but will have to take more return attacks) and then, as you say the fire dragons/dire avengers get a crack at the squidgy stuff.

Any fm that puts the well armoured/hard stuff (units with EAs/macro weapons etc) at the front gets it's protection peeled away ready for the inevitable storm of fire from the DAs/ fire dragons.

I suppose infiltrate would be useful but would it be too much is my worry and just how many special rules can a single unit type have?  *Laugh*

I suppose it would need testing.  The addition of infiltrate would make a pairing with warp spiders pretty damned attractive.  Again, though, i worry that it may be too much.

Hmm, I think we are getting somewhere with this model of role and events (obviously needs testing). One big advantage of mixing Banshees with an FF Aspect is the potential for focusing the assault on fewer enemy units merely by the Banshees being in B-B. I might add that using Warp Spiders may actually prove sub-optimal because all the hits get allocated in one round so difusing the potential focus.

Assuming you put the 4x Banshees into contact with 2x target units, these will suffer 2x First Strike hits from the Banshees and then 2x hits from the FF aspects in the normal round. This potentially allows the Eldar to focus the Fire Dragon's MW FF attacks onto particular units (assuming they survive the initial Banshee assault). However, the question is whether that is sufficient to overcome the potential target armour (4+ and 4+RA).

_________________
"Play up and play the game"

Vitai lampada
Sir Hemry Newbolt

OK, so I hope to test some of the above ideas tomorrow using the list here. I will use two mixed FR and Banshees formations in Vampire and Wave Serpents, and Banshees with Warp Spiders in Storm Serpent. I propose to check different stats in each of the various assaults, and post the results here.

_________________
"Play up and play the game"

Vitai lampada
Sir Hemry Newbolt

Look forward to reading the bat rep.  

Ok so last week I got the test game in against Moronguhl, who used the following IG army:-

100 Sentinels
100 Sentinels
550 Reg HQ + Hydra
700 Leman Russ + Hydra
400 Infantry + Support + Hydra
250 Manticore battery
275 Warhound
350 Storm Troopers + Valkyries
200 Shadow Sword
- - - and he threw 12x commisars – so there was one in every formation (and a nice target for this test)

I used the Eldar army proposed earlier

550 Banshees +  Exs + Wave Serpents
400 Banshees + Ex + Sc
350 Banshees + Exs
350 Guardians + Wave Serpents
300 Night Wings
250 Storm Serpent
250 Void Spinner
200 Vampire
200 Bikes
100 Rangers
50 Gate

The Eldar lost the strategy role! And the IG started off by killing the Rangers . . . but I will only report on the four Banshee assaults against Valkyries, Leman Russ, Sentinels and reinforced infantry company. In each case we threw the Eldar dice, but then considered the effects of those dice for pure Banshee and mixed aspect formations; and also for the various proposed stats. Then we considered the effect the surviving troops had on the Banshees and the subsequent assault resolution.

_________________
"Play up and play the game"

Vitai lampada
Sir Hemry Newbolt

ASSAULT #1 - Vampire borne assault Vs Storm troopers in Valkyries
Fearing the effects of the Valkyries, the Eldar decided to assault the Storm troopers on the right flank positioned near the infantry company. The Void Spinner opened up, only laying a BM, and then Vampire assaulted. The nearby infantry’s attached Hydra opened up inflicting a point of damage and 2x BMs before the Vampire landed. The IG had decided to leave the Storm Troopers inside the transports, so the Eldar ‘locked in’ most of them by landing the vampire in B-B against one and disembarking the Banshees into B-B against two more (including the Commissar’s), leaving one free.

The Eldar rolled the following dice:-
- Banshees (FS) 5,1,3,5
- Fire Dragons 4,4,1,2
- Exarchs 3,6
- Vampire 2,4


• Option #1 Banshees and Fire Dragons against mounted troops
  - In the ‘normal assault’ round, the Banshees only gain two hits in FF while if present, the Fire Dragons score an additional 2x MW hits. The Exarchs and Vampire gain a further 2x hits, and these are allocated to the Valkyries and one Storm Trooper. The Storm Trooper and 2x Valkyries die, taking a further two storm troopers with them. In reply; the IG obtained 2x hits that were allocated to the Vampire (which saved).
  - Assault resolution :- Eldar start 5+, dice (Eldar ‘4’, IG ‘3’) means that the IG are all wiped out but the Commissar.
  - Note the CC stats variations are irrelevant here as the Banshees only get to use FF against the skimmers
  
  
• Option #2 Banshees and Fire Dragons against dismounted troops
  - The Vampire barge into a Valkyrie and 2x troopers, but without infiltrate the Banshees are unable to get to the Commissar (need to approach from the opposite side to avoid support fire from the reinforced Infantry company)
  - The Banshees First Strike kill approximately 4-6 enemy depending on stats. CC2+ would kill one more trooper than CC4+MW, but by staying outside the Valkyries the IG would only lose 2-3 units instead of 4x units in the earlier examples. In reply the IG get 4x hits, allocated to the Vampire (which saved) and two banshees (which died)
  - The assault resolution is slightly better for the IG – but they still lose all but 3-4 units.
  
  
• Post assault
  Rather foolishly, the Aspects decided to cluster under the Vampire as there was no other cover nearby and they did not want to risk the OW of the nearby infantry. The Manticores took their revenge getting 5x hits, killing the Vampire and 2x Banshees, and breaking the Aspects. The formation retreats to a nearby set of ruins where they rally at the end of the turn

_________________
"Play up and play the game"

Vitai lampada
Sir Hemry Newbolt

ASSAULT #2 – Storm Serpent borne assault Vs Leman Russ
The IG Leman Russ had occupied the centre of the table with the Warhound near their right flank and the Infantry on OW to their left rear. The Eldar doubled the Guardians up to their flank into the OW fire of the Infantry, losing only a single tank and unit; and put a single BM on the Leman Russ.
In the following turn, the Storm Serpent doubled forwards, also laying a BM and the Banshees retained assaulting out of the onboard wraithgate. Infiltrate might have helped to get into contact with the commissar, but otherwise we put the Banshees in contact with 2x tanks.

The Eldar rolled the following dice:-
- Banshees (FS) 6,6,6,3
- Warp Spiders 3,4,3,2
- Exarchs 1,2


• Option #1 ‘all Banshee’ assault (using the first 8x dice)
  - Assuming an All Banshee formation, CC2+ gave 7x hits (6x saves), CC4+MW gave 4x hits (3x saves)
  - The Leman Russ got 4x hits in return (killing 4x Banshees)
  - Support fire from the Storm Serpent and Guardians manage to kill a further 3x tanks.
  - Assault resolution:- Eldar start +3, and the dice (Eldar ‘6’, IG ‘3’) leaves only 3x tanks, but the Aspects are also broken.
  
  
• Option #2 ‘Mixed Banshee’ assault
  - Assuming Mixed Banshee and Warp Spiders, the Banshees only get 3-4 hits (all saved), and a single Warp Spider hit (killing a tank)
  - The return fire still kills 4x Banshees, and the assault is still won by the support fire
  
  
• Post assault
  The broken Aspects retreat to their Blitz and play no further part in the game.

_________________
"Play up and play the game"

Vitai lampada
Sir Hemry Newbolt

ASSAULT #3 ‘Naked’ Banshees - Vs Sentinels
Turn #2, and the Eldar want to remove the Sentinel screen in front of the infantry. The rallied Banshees ‘clipped’ one end leaving only two capable of taking part.

The Eldar rolled the following dice:-
- Banshees (FS) 2,2
- Fire Dragons 1,6,1,5
- Exarchs 1,5


• Option #1 ‘all Banshee’
  Only the first two Banshees get into CC. With CC2+ the Banshees kill off the 2x Sentinels in First Strike and no other casualties were caused. With CC4+MW, they miss and the normal round results in the death of 2x Sentinels (no hits caused in return)
  - Assault Resolution: Eldar start 5+ up and even though the IG get better dice (Eldar ‘4’, IG ‘5’) only the Commissar escapes again.
  
  
• Option #2 ‘Mixed Banshee’ assault
  - Assuming Mixed Banshee and Fire Dragon, the Banshees only get 0-2 hits, but the 2x Sentinels then die to the Fire Dragons.
  - The assault resolution is the same

_________________
"Play up and play the game"

Vitai lampada
Sir Hemry Newbolt

ASSAULT #4 – Banshees in Wave Serpents Vs Infantry company
With the screen removed, the Eldar launched an assault on the reinforced infantry, putting the Wave Serpents into contact along with 4x Banshees.

The Eldar rolled the following dice:-
- Banshees (FS) 6,4,3,3
- Fire Dragons 6,6,5,1
- Wave Serpents 3,4,4,5
- Exarchs 1,2


• Option #1 ‘all Banshee’
  - Only six Banshees get into CC. With CC2+ the Banshees kill off 6x infantry and support squads in First Strike and no other casualties were caused. With CC4+MW, only 4x hits are caused.
  - In reply, 3x hits were allocated to a Wave Serpent (saved) and 2x Banshees (one saved)
  - Support fire from the other Banshees kills a further 2x infantry
  - Assault Resolution: Eldar start 10+ or 8+ up and with tied dice (both threw 5,6), again only the Commissar escapes.
  
  
• Option #2 ‘Mixed Banshee’ assault
  - The result is almost identical, with the Fire Dragons scoring 3x MW hits, while two more hits get allocated to the Wave Serpents (that remain in contact with infantry) .
  - The assault resolution is the same

_________________
"Play up and play the game"

Vitai lampada
Sir Hemry Newbolt

_________________
"Play up and play the game"

Vitai lampada
Sir Hemry Newbolt

So, has anyone else done any testing with Banshee variants?

_________________
"EPIC: Total War" Lead Developer

Now living in Boston... any EPIC players want to meet up?

Yes i've been playing them with +2 CC but no other stat changes, i tend to use 4 bases of them and 4 Fire Dragons or Striking Scorpions, put them in a vampire.

It works ok, but you have to pick your targets and be careful about placing them.

I've found Banshees are one of those units that work really well against some formations but are very average against some things, overall i like the +2 CC but i can see them working with +3 CC and a 4+ armour save.

_________________
"Dyslexia is a Privilege, not a right"

I would agree with Pulsar here about the armour save, and have always thought that this was actually one of the weak points of the Banshee unit. This coupled with the general view that Warp Spiders may still be a bit OTT, made me wonder if it was worth exchanging their armour values with the Banshees. I might add that this would then make all 'FF' aspects 5+ armour while making 'CC' aspects 4+ which also appeals.

Ok, I know that the WS armour value is derived from the W40 association, but this would tone them down a little, while making the Banshees tougher would obviously help them. I might add that reducing the WS armour would IMHO allow us to reconsider the transport restrictions - but that is another argument for another thread.

_________________
"Play up and play the game"

Vitai lampada
Sir Hemry Newbolt