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Black Templars V3.5 proposed changes
yme-loc
 Post subject: Black Templars V3.5 proposed changes
PostPosted: Thu Jun 11, 2009 2:01 pm 
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At the end of the day the EpicUK Land Raider Crusader stats were designed to get a 75pts vehicle as a straight swap with the Land raider but with a totally different focus.

Frag Launchers - these are just frag grenades which pretty much everyone has anyway and in 40K they have virtually no effect, it was just decided not to bother with them.

Pintle Mounted Multi Melta - How is this any more confusing than any small arms entry like bolters etc, none of them actually do anything it was just included for completeness - as an abstraction perhaps its why the Crusader has FF4+.

Twin Linked Assault Cannon - This was a deliberate stat and when we did it we knew it was a change from the standard Twin linked rules, Main reason was it keeps the crusader away from AT fire of the Standard Land Raider, helps balance it at 75pts (a side effect also is its probably a better reflection of a twin linked assault cannons abilities)

Hope that helps with the reasoning, A version with frag launchers and a twin assault cannon at AP4+/AT4+ would probably still work fine at 75pts but we wanted to be a bit cautious.

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yme-loc
 Post subject: Black Templars V3.5 proposed changes
PostPosted: Thu Jun 11, 2009 2:03 pm 
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Quote: (The_Real_Chris @ 11 Jun. 2009, 13:59 )

Quote: (Chroma @ 11 Jun. 2009, 13:02 )

Quote: (Evil and Chaos @ 11 Jun. 2009, 11:57 )

That must be a typo, surely.
It's a rock solid part of the Epic rule set that Twin weapons give +1 to hit over a single weapon.

Actually, it's not "rock solid"... some Twin weapons only increase the AP value by 1, not both values.

Really? Which ones? Can't think of any in any of the published lists.

Some Ork weapons.

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The_Real_Chris
 Post subject: Black Templars V3.5 proposed changes
PostPosted: Thu Jun 11, 2009 2:07 pm 
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Something else to bear in mind for EpicUK is they are designing just for specific tourney lists. So no problems with combos like THT's and crusaders, or thinking about future lists (as this is the EpicUk space marine selection giving the various styles of play they wish to see).

Pintle Mounted Multi Melta - How is this any more confusing than any small arms entry like bolters etc, none of them actually do anything it was just included for completeness


Only because all melta weapons in all the lists bar this one give MW. Whether the eldar (melta guns), the marines (multi melta) or the siegers (melta bombs).

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yme-loc
 Post subject: Black Templars V3.5 proposed changes
PostPosted: Thu Jun 11, 2009 2:07 pm 
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Quote: (GlynG @ 11 Jun. 2009, 13:06 )

Wandering OT now but that's not exactly inspiring my confidence in Epic-UK if they haven't fixed them since, it just highlights problems with completely closed playtesting and not allowing the wider community to look over them prior to being officially released.

The Real Chris: And we are supposed to have stats that can be used in several lists. For instance an Imperial Fists siege force would use Crusaders ont he ground.
All lists should share the same Crusader stats, but the non Multi-Melta stats are also a perfectly viable option, as supported by various people here and gone for by Epic-UK.

We are collecting a list of problems which will be fixed at a 6 month list review, some have been very helpfully pointed out by E&C and if anyone else spots any please let us know at our web address or on these forums

we decided to wait 6 months so that most mistakes should have been found and we could do a single update of things like points mistakes and typos etc.

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Black Templars V3.5 proposed changes
PostPosted: Thu Jun 11, 2009 2:09 pm 
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Quote: (GlynG @ 11 Jun. 2009, 13:06 )

Wandering OT now but that's not exactly inspiring my confidence in Epic-UK if they haven't fixed them since, it just highlights problems with completely closed playtesting and not allowing the wider community to look over them prior to being officially released.

Their approach to the game / development ethos has certainly put some of my friends off attending their tournaments, but they're clearly not going to be conducting open development in the same manner as Jervis developed Epic's rulebooks / the NetERC operates / the FrenchERC operates...

I'm looking forwards to the Bristol Tournament, as it'll be a less 'EpicUK-ish' so I reckon I can convince some of the guys to attend who wouldn't go near an EpicUK event.


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The above is not a slight on the guys who're working on the EpicUK projects, they are of course doing their best for their community.

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Chroma
 Post subject: Black Templars V3.5 proposed changes
PostPosted: Thu Jun 11, 2009 2:13 pm 
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Quote: (The_Real_Chris @ 11 Jun. 2009, 13:59 )

Quote: (Chroma @ 11 Jun. 2009, 13:02 )

Quote: (Evil and Chaos @ 11 Jun. 2009, 11:57 )

That must be a typo, surely.
It's a rock solid part of the Epic rule set that Twin weapons give +1 to hit over a single weapon.

Actually, it's not "rock solid"... some Twin weapons only increase the AP value by 1, not both values.

Really? Which ones? Can't think of any in any of the published lists.

Orks.

Big Shootas: AP6+/AT6+

Twin-Big Shootas: AP5+/AT6+

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yme-loc
 Post subject: Black Templars V3.5 proposed changes
PostPosted: Thu Jun 11, 2009 2:15 pm 
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Quote: (The_Real_Chris @ 11 Jun. 2009, 14:07 )

Something else to bear in mind for EpicUK is they are designing just for specific tourney lists. So no problems with combos like THT's and crusaders, or thinking about future lists (as this is the EpicUk space marine selection giving the various styles of play they wish to see).

Pintle Mounted Multi Melta - How is this any more confusing than any small arms entry like bolters etc, none of them actually do anything it was just included for completeness


Only because all melta weapons in all the lists bar this one give MW. Whether the eldar (melta guns), the marines (multi melta) or the siegers (melta bombs).

Its not a multi melta its a pintle mounted multi melta different weapon entirely :)

Theres a lot of abstraction in epic not all melta weapons are represented strictly speaking its a full squad of melta guns that warrants a FF4+ melta attack individual melta guns are factored into FF values along with things like the odd plasma gun and melta grenades etc.

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Black Templars V3.5 proposed changes
PostPosted: Thu Jun 11, 2009 2:17 pm 
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Quote: (yme-loc @ 11 Jun. 2009, 14:01 )

Frag Launchers - these are just frag grenades which pretty much everyone has anyway and in 40K they have virtually no effect, it was just decided not to bother with them.

They're pretty useful in 40k, as it helps the Terminators onboard not get quite so beat up before attacking, as they can't take frag grenades themselves.

In Epic, it's largely irrelevant but kinda fun ; not an essential component of the Crusader, but it gives a nice bit of flavour.

You could argue that the EpicUK stats incorporate the 'Frag Grenades' into the FF stat.

Pintle Mounted Multi Melta - How is this any more confusing than any small arms entry like bolters etc, none of them actually do anything it was just included for completeness - as an abstraction perhaps its why the Crusader has FF4+.

*shrug*

The multi-melta specifically does do something normally (gives the unit the Macro-Weapon ability on its Firefight attack), so I can see why it would cause a little consternation, if not outright confusion, because a multi-melta is functionally identical to a pintle-mounted multi-melta in Warhammer 40,000.

Best to just drop it from the ERC datafax I'd say, especially as it's just an optional upgrade in Warhammer 40,000, instead of being part of the stock configuration like the Assault Cannon or the Hurricane Bolters.

Twin Linked Assault Cannon - This was a deliberate stat and when we did it we knew it was a change from the standard Twin linked rules, Main reason was it keeps the crusader away from AT fire of the Standard Land Raider, helps balance it at 75pts (a side effect also is its probably a better reflection of a twin linked assault cannons abilities)

Hope that helps with the reasoning, A version with frag launchers and a twin assault cannon at AP4+/AT4+ would probably still work fine at 75pts but we wanted to be a bit cautious.

I support the AP4+/AT4+ stat, just as with not using the 'pintle multi-melta' stat it will help avoid unnessesary confusion as to why a 'twin' weapon isn't really a twin weapon.

It's not like a single shot will be all that useful at range, as compared to the Land Raiders 3 shots; the real utility of the Crusader is in Firefight & in Transport capacity.


Orks.
Orks are silly. :)




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The_Real_Chris
 Post subject: Black Templars V3.5 proposed changes
PostPosted: Thu Jun 11, 2009 2:38 pm 
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Quote: (Chroma @ 11 Jun. 2009, 14:13 )

Orks.

Big Shootas: AP6+/AT6+

Twin-Big Shootas: AP5+/AT6+

And of course warbikes twin big shooters at AP5+/AT5+

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Chroma
 Post subject: Black Templars V3.5 proposed changes
PostPosted: Thu Jun 11, 2009 2:42 pm 
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Quote: (The_Real_Chris @ 11 Jun. 2009, 14:38 )

And of course warbikes twin big shooters at AP5+/AT5+

Those are actually "Twin Sawn Off Big Shootas", so, technically, they're allowed to have other stats...

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Black Templars V3.5 proposed changes
PostPosted: Thu Jun 11, 2009 2:56 pm 
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Can I have stats for a master-crafted Boltgun yet? :))

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The_Real_Chris
 Post subject: Black Templars V3.5 proposed changes
PostPosted: Thu Jun 11, 2009 3:06 pm 
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(15cm) Small Arms

:)

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Black Templars V3.5 proposed changes
PostPosted: Thu Jun 11, 2009 3:08 pm 
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Awww that's boring. :)

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The_Real_Chris
 Post subject: Black Templars V3.5 proposed changes
PostPosted: Thu Jun 11, 2009 3:24 pm 
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Quote: (The_Real_Chris @ 11 Jun. 2009, 14:07 )

Something else to bear in mind for EpicUK is they are designing just for specific tourney lists. So no problems with combos like THT's and crusaders, or thinking about future lists (as this is the EpicUk space marine selection giving the various styles of play they wish to see).

Tell a lie, you can do crusaders and THT's, just less quality on each. Still 850 for 2 transporters, terminators, a chaplain and two crusaders, maybe throw in an Emperors champion for that second inspiring and a fearless unit (fearless inspiring invulnerable save terminator sounds quite nifty :) ). I must say fielding a first company with the EpicUK BT list is quite tempting.
Even a straight teleporting Terminator formation with chaplain and champ looks pretty mean.

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Pulsar
 Post subject: Black Templars V3.5 proposed changes
PostPosted: Thu Jun 11, 2009 4:34 pm 
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I think the Twin Assult cannon should still have AT 4+ and i like the frag launchers they are fluffy (i've also made them for my LRC  :))  ), as the stats of the LRC don't just effict BT so i'm thinking for now of just uping the cost to 125 each but i would like to be able to have them interchangeable with normal LD at some point in the future.

so what about Neophytes, ATSKNF, and drop pods?

and should both Neophytes and Neophyte Bikers have the set size upgrades of 2 stands for 75 and 4 for 150?

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