no offense but it sounds like we're inventing problems now. no one has even mentioned this before. no one has shown any proof that this is overpowering.

This battle was won almost entirely because of being able to rally without BMs.

All other armies get BMs when they rally, why are necrons special?

_________________
http://www.troublemakergames.co.uk/
Epic: Hive Development Thread

Seconded.

_________________
Currently doing a plastic scenery kickstarter

And as you like to say, this is just one battle report.  And a marginal win at best.

_________________
author of Syncing Forward and other stories...

It's a dog-eat-dog world, and I've got my Milkbone underwear on.

Indeed it was just one battle report, but the point has been raised and not answered.

_________________
Currently doing a plastic scenery kickstarter

It really wasn't a marginal win. By the middle of turn 2 it was only going to go one way. There was a slight chance he could have forced a turn 4 had I failed to break his HQ company, but he wouldn't have had a chance at winning it. I had a couple of activations to spare at the end of turn 3 at 3-0 up (reduced to 2-0 when his HQ rallied to stop me holding the line). I could have got a 4-0 win had I gone for his BTS russ company when it was broken with just 3 models left (admittedly including a commissar). Really not marginal, despite my early screw-ups.

But regardless of the battle report, why are necrons so special that they don't get BMs when rallying from being broken? Chroma's point about not being able to bring back by marshalling proved wrong, and Corey's new suggestion that it's so they can't bring back units in the rally phase is easily fixed with a single line edit.

It just seems to me to be another case of Necrons just getting a better deal than most other armies, for no particular reason.

_________________
http://www.troublemakergames.co.uk/
Epic: Hive Development Thread

Why can Tyranids get to bring back units?  Why can Chaos Summon Daemons?  Why do Space Marines get ATSKNF?  Why do the Eldar get so many skimmers?  Why do Orks get a free Supreme Commander when nobody else does?  

I agree with mnb.  The batrep is a fine illustration of why Obelisks should be in a supporting role based on the feel of the army alone.  But everything else seems like we're creating problems where there are none.  This hasn't been an issue until it was brought up on this thread, yet now it is a fundamental flaw in the Necron army that has to be eradicated for the list to function?  

No.

But thanks for going through the effort of putting up the batrep though.  It was quite good.

_________________
author of Syncing Forward and other stories...

It's a dog-eat-dog world, and I've got my Milkbone underwear on.

Actually I've been saying that the phase-out/teleport mechanic is overpowered for as long as I can remember, this is just the first playtest I have done that shows it.


Why can Tyranids get to bring back units?  
Why can Chaos Summon Daemons?  
Why do Space Marines get ATSKNF?  
Why do the Eldar get so many skimmers?  
Why do Orks get a free Supreme Commander when nobody else does?  

_________________
http://www.troublemakergames.co.uk/
Epic: Hive Development Thread

Here's the reason for it, Zombo, so you can finally understand: It shows how the Nids are producing/reclaiming troops *as* they're fighting.  That's it.  

_________________
"EPIC: Total War" Lead Developer

Now living in Boston... any EPIC players want to meet up?

This is an incorrect observation.  Problems with the phase out rally rules are not new.  They are not invented.  The rules and their complications were discussed extensively before.

The phase out rally rules have been identified as a potential problem for literally years.  It was originally automatic rally plus full BM removal for phased out formations.  After several examples of abuse, Corey eventually took out the auto-rally because it was recognized as a legitimate problem.  He left the BM removal.

Now, after roughly a year and a half of play with that initial solution, the phase out rally is being revisited.

===

Incidentally, that's the preferred development process - change it, play it several times over an extended period, observe, report, suggest.  Following the process and allowing the rules to fallow shouldn't open up an opinion to criticisms of "if it's gone all this time without comment, it must not be a problem."  That's only going to discourage people from following the process.  They'll either harp constantly or stop participating because they feel their opinions are dismissed.

===

EDIT:  None of that is intended to bash mnb in particular.  I just picked his quote because it was representative of similar comments that have cropped up.

_________________
Neal

no offense taken. but after extensive talking on numerous threads it has not come up. i'd be more then happy to admit if i'm wrong. but i think it takes more then one example to prove this. i've had flayed ones taken out by 2 whirlwinds.... once, that doesn't mean the unit is flawed.

We're getting pretty off-topic here, but personally I don't believe that should be replicated at the scale on an epic battle. It either becomes powerful and gamey or underwhelming and does very little . I feel it complicates the list greatly for little gain. The French did away with it, for good reasons. If spawning has to exist it should be for nothing bigger than a ravener. The idea of huge living beasts popping out of nowhere just doesn't feel like nids to me, not to mention that the mechanic used only brings the dead back to life rather than spawning new stuff.

Anyway, let's keep that discussion to the other thread.

Neal has pointed out more clearly than I have managed that the basic phase-out mechanic has been under a critical gaze for a long time. Personally I think getting rid of the free BM removal would go a long way to balancing this mechanic, though phasing out would remain better than the standard "broken" rules in almost every way. Even with this change the only place where phase out would be worse than the normal rules is in BTS/HTL/Victory points calculations. In all other respects it'd still be better (e.g. formations that fail to rally get to be safe offboard rather than shot at and crumbled onboard).

_________________
http://www.troublemakergames.co.uk/
Epic: Hive Development Thread

Not to mention you can never put a formation within 30cm of a Necron formation that wants to rally to give them a -1 penalty, as they rally whilst off-board...

_________________
Currently doing a plastic scenery kickstarter

Also true. Phase-out would still be an overall advantage even without the free BM removal.

_________________
http://www.troublemakergames.co.uk/
Epic: Hive Development Thread