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An Overdose of Obelisks

 Post subject: An Overdose of Obelisks
PostPosted: Mon May 25, 2009 12:57 pm 
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Quote: (Chroma @ 25 May 2009, 12:29 )

Quote: (Evil and Chaos @ 25 May 2009, 12:27 )

In either case, it didn't affect this game one whit.

Yeah, it was more the poor rolling for the Guard that decided it...  :vD

I wouldn't say so, I had a pretty great first turn.

I won the strategy roll and started knocking out Obelisk formations left and right through relentless 'retain' actiations... half way through turn 1 Zombocom was considering giving up but I convinced him to continue!

The moment I lost the initiative the Necrons, with their considerably superior speed and manueverability, were able to crossfire me with almost every shooting activation, and with each Obelisk packing essentially a Battlecannon, there was a lot of incoming fire.

Once I was on the back foot against the Obelisk horde it cut me to pieces, going into turn 3 he out-activated me something like 2:1.

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 Post subject: An Overdose of Obelisks
PostPosted: Mon May 25, 2009 12:58 pm 
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Quote: (Hena @ 25 May 2009, 12:32 )

That seemed to give bonus to kills all around. I don't think that Necron force as such dominated the game though.

No it didn't dominate, unlike the official Black Legion list I think my Mech. Guard could actually beat it on a good day, and I reckon against some armies (like the Siegemasters) it wouldn't stand a chance...

...but it didn't really feel like I was playing against a Necron army.




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 Post subject: An Overdose of Obelisks
PostPosted: Mon May 25, 2009 2:16 pm 
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The real bonus I had over him was than my formations, when broken, could rally offboard on a 3+ then teleport in somewhere useful. His broken formations were forced back to his board edge as it was the only safe direction to run. This gave me a much higher percentage of "useful" activations in the 2nd and 3rd turn.




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 Post subject: An Overdose of Obelisks
PostPosted: Mon May 25, 2009 2:34 pm 
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Phase-out works well for troops, as there is a downside (no respawning troops when offboard), and they have to reenter through a portal, which can be dealt with by the opposition.

For this army (or probably a flayed one horde too), it's just a get-out-clause, allowing them to escape when they've made a mistake and go somewhere more useful.

I'm still not convinced that this extremely powerful ability is properly costed throughout the necron list. There really should be some bigger downside to phasing out.

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 Post subject: An Overdose of Obelisks
PostPosted: Mon May 25, 2009 3:05 pm 
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Quote: (Chroma @ 25 May 2009, 18:57 )

Quote: (Onyx @ 25 May 2009, 08:07 )

Not speaking for zombo and E&C but we have a gentlemens agreement never to put any terrain in the deployment zones because it can give an unfair advantage to certain armies (ie Guard artillery).

There is always terrain to hide behind and that blocks LOS but nothing to hide in directly. Seems to work well enough for us.

That actually radically changes things as any infantry groups that aren't garrisoning are incredibly vulnerable to first turn artillery, not to mention teleporting Necrons or Terminators!

The "higher strategy rating choses side corner" is in place to mitigate some of that... or give the advantage... on purpose.  Around here, a side/corner is often picked specifically on the "pre-turn" advantage it can give, or the denial of such benefits to the enemy.

If there's no terrain in the deployment zone, I can see how Necrons can be devastating against Guard or Ork armies.

Why wouldn't an infantry group garrison into the cover that has been placed directly in front of the blitz outside the DZ? There doesn't need to be terrain in the Deployment Zone for a player to be able to benefit from terrain.

The exact opposite of your statement also applies - Guard artillery, deployed in a forest or ruined building, gives the Guard a huge advantage against certain armies. Deployment is everything - like making sure that Scout screens are used helps, etc.

Anyway, back to the batrep.

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 Post subject: An Overdose of Obelisks
PostPosted: Mon May 25, 2009 3:08 pm 
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Ok so the big hoo-rah at the moment is about super-teleporting-Obelisk-only armies being a bit on the wrong side- has it been suggested or playtested that 1 (or two) Armoured phalanx may only be taken for each Infantry phalanx in the list? Wouldn't this balance lists back towards the infantry (1 mandatory at least) whilst still allowing you to take them?

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 Post subject: An Overdose of Obelisks
PostPosted: Mon May 25, 2009 3:15 pm 
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That type of batrep puts it into perspective... Regardless of it being over- or underpowered, an all Obelisks army didn't play like a Necron army.

The Pylon seemed as underwhelming as the Shadowsword. :laugh: How did you like the new range?  Did you find less targets because of it or did intervening terrain preclude the distance shots regardless?

It appears that the deciding factors for the game were:
Maneuverability of the Obs to generate cross-fires and main tactical positions
Those same Obs re-deploying en masse via the teleport function
Shadowsword blowing chunks
Position of the objectives relative the deployment

Would you agree?

IMO none of those things really strike me as overpowered in-and-of themselves, but the synergy of the units strengths combined with those factors brought the win.  

I do disagree, however, that the teleporting off is too much of an advantage.  Many a game I have played where it came down to points and I lost because of formations off-board.  Also this ability to leave and re-deploy is as important to the army as the Necron warriors themselves.  Mitigate it anymore and you'll end up with something un-Necron like. :ghost:

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 Post subject: An Overdose of Obelisks
PostPosted: Mon May 25, 2009 3:44 pm 
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Quote: (Moscovian @ 25 May 2009, 15:15 )

The Pylon seemed as underwhelming as the Shadowsword. :laugh: How did you like the new range?  Did you find less targets because of it or did intervening terrain preclude the distance shots regardless?

Actually I deliberately teleported my pylon somewhere where it would get no ground shots at all, which I usually have to do when only taking one pylon else it'll be broken by the enemy early and leave me with no AA cover. The range or TK1 didn't come into it as the only time it was used was to shoot down a thunderbolt that was directly attacking the pylon.


It appears that the deciding factors for the game were:
Maneuverability of the Obs to generate cross-fires and main tactical positions
Those same Obs re-deploying en masse via the teleport function
Shadowsword blowing chunks
Position of the objectives relative the deployment

Would you agree?


Partially. The shadowsword made little difference, since it could kill at most a single obelisk a turn anyway. Mostly the game was won by the manouverability of the obelisks combined with their redeployability, and their fearlessness to survive from being broken to phasing out. E&C did place his objectives poorly, allowing me to make the triangle in the centre, but my initial teleport positioning was poor, meaning I lost big in the first few activations.


IMO none of those things really strike me as overpowered in-and-of themselves, but the synergy of the units strengths combined with those factors brought the win.  


Sure, none of these things are hugely overpowered in the context of a mixed list, but in this one-trick pony list these strengths shine.


I do disagree, however, that the teleporting off is too much of an advantage.  Many a game I have played where it came down to points and I lost because of formations off-board.  Also this ability to leave and re-deploy is as important to the army as the Necron warriors themselves.  Mitigate it anymore and you'll end up with something un-Necron like. :ghost:


I understand, and I do like the mechanic, but it's important to recognise that as a whole, phase-out is a benefit rather than a drawback. This needs to be costed correctly, or adjusted to be of less benefit.

For example, why do formations rallying offboard lose all BMs automatically? How about they get half as normal? With the caveat of not bringing models back when offboard remaining of course...

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 Post subject: An Overdose of Obelisks
PostPosted: Mon May 25, 2009 3:46 pm 
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Quote: (fattdex @ 25 May 2009, 15:08 )

Ok so the big hoo-rah at the moment is about super-teleporting-Obelisk-only armies being a bit on the wrong side- has it been suggested or playtested that 1 (or two) Armoured phalanx may only be taken for each Infantry phalanx in the list? Wouldn't this balance lists back towards the infantry (1 mandatory at least) whilst still allowing you to take them?

In that case they might as well go back to being a support formation, which still allows you to do an obelisk themed list if you want.

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 Post subject: An Overdose of Obelisks
PostPosted: Mon May 25, 2009 3:59 pm 
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E&C did place his objectives poorly


I disagree, both of my objectives were placed near a cluster of buildings that could give my Guard a 4+ cover save (About equal to your 5+RA)... against most other armies it would have been some good placement.

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 Post subject: An Overdose of Obelisks
PostPosted: Mon May 25, 2009 4:53 pm 
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But you know how effective a triangle of objectives can be for a teleporting army to sit in!




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 Post subject: An Overdose of Obelisks
PostPosted: Mon May 25, 2009 4:57 pm 
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The "TRC Triangle" refers to putting your two objectives as close to the enemy blitz as possible then teleporting into that triangle... this one wasn't quite as pwnage.

Yes that is a proper term. :)




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 Post subject: An Overdose of Obelisks
PostPosted: Mon May 25, 2009 5:12 pm 
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Yeah, this was a varient form of triangle, in that those three objectives alone weren't enough to win me the game.

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