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Epic and WAAC
alansa
 Post subject: Epic and WAAC
PostPosted: Fri May 01, 2009 2:50 pm 
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1: It's competition! Not a roleplay
2: Those crazy things and amazing stories do happen anyway
3: sharing does happen, even though there's no rule that says it must

4: As has been discussed, virtually all armies are fluffy! Epic makes it that way. Everyone can make a story for their compositions.  The only problem is that some choices are dumb and some are no brainers. In a game of this type that has to be expected. The only way to sort this in a competion is to legislate with the army lists. Otherwise you have no game but rather a roleplay instead.

How would you legistlate against a tripling objective grabbing stand of boyz in a competition. In a roleplay you could get a GM to rule against it.

Are you playing epic in the mode best suited to you E&C?

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Epic and WAAC
PostPosted: Fri May 01, 2009 2:51 pm 
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Quote: (Ginger @ 01 May 2009, 14:45 )

But you are correct that this is unlikely to occur on a tournament table because telling the saga is not really one of the tournament objectives. So, is it sensible / practical to include something like this in tournaments?

Not really.

Having a 'Best storyteller' award isn't really the preserve of a tournament situation.

After all we already have points for painting and sportsmanship, which are deliberately intended to reduce the impact of WAAC in the tournament


I'm actually a proponent of removing painting scores from tournaments, I think they should be won and lost on tactical skill (And luck), not your skill with a paint brush.

And yes that means I'd probably place a point or two lower down the tables, as I'm quite a good painter.

I also think that sports scores shouldn't be nessesary as we're all adults.

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Steve54
 Post subject: Epic and WAAC
PostPosted: Fri May 01, 2009 2:58 pm 
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Quote: (Evil and Chaos @ 01 May 2009, 12:10 )

Quote: (Ottermatthew @ 01 May 2009, 09:00 )

Does WAAC happen?

Okay to answer the actual question; does WAAC happen at EPIC tournaments within the UK ... Absolutely Not.

Partially Not.

I have met Commissariat Warhounds, and I have played TRC (Who only plays in a self-avowed WAAC style even in friendly games)!

Compared to other GW game systems? No.
Compared to 'friendly' games of Epic? 20% Yes.

I can support this argument by the Sportsmanship scores given to players at EPIC UK events...


Not to insult the character of the more regular attendees, but sportsmanship scores are universally high for known WAAC events in Warhammer Fantasy / Warhammer 40,000. All the WAAC players just tick each other highly as an unstated agreement, and since the majority of players all come expecting the same environment if you just check the 'facts' then everything looks hunky-doory.

Also I have seen people read their sports scores and reflect; the next tournament you can see an improvement in their attitude.


Now that's an indication of the real nature of Epic tournaments, an opinion instead of a fact is more useful in this case!

It's funny to see that the people who don't attend regular tournaments have a problem beating Black Legion. I have no problem beating any Black Legion army

64% of EpicUK gamers also have a problem beating the Black Legion...

...I can beat the Pixelgeek Black Legion list with other lists, but my mechanised Imperial Guard have never done it and I doubt they can. The Pixelgeek Black Legion is just too good at ignoring the cover/armour saves of the mechanised companies, teleporting to kill my Leman Russes, keeping the BTS unclaimed due to fearles/ultra-hard-to-kill Obliterators, having a higher Strategy Rating allowing the Black Legion to choose what to kill first, etc.

It's the perfect stone to my Mech. Guard's scissor, and I doubt anyone could lead it to victory against an average Pixelgeek Black Legion army list barring incredible luck.

Friendly Vs Tournament games

This actually makes me laugh ... you say at tournaments people want to win the game. Well in a friendly game don't you also want to win? Do you go to your gaming club every week thinking "Hey, lets loose tonight"  :vD


You repeatedly 'laugh' or call friendly gamer's opinions 'funny'. I'd advise you to stop, it's not appropriate.



A friendly game is normally marked by the following:

- Both players discussing the game as it goes along and often giving each other tactical advice.
- Army list builds that are not fully optimised 'for the win'.
- A cooperative atmosphere.
- Freedom to change rules that both players feel are unrealistic, underpowered or overpowered
- Freedom to use your favourite NetERC army list.


A tournament game is normally marked by the following:

- Both players keeping their tactical thoughts a complete secret.
- Army list builds fully optimised.
- An adversarial atmosphere.
- Freedom to bend rules to your advantage despite the spirit of the rules
- You may only use a small selection of army lists (Slowly growing)

It's not as simple as one style being 'played for the win' and one style being 'played for the the loss'... to say so is facetious at best.


The more I think about it the more I don't think WAAC isn't the problem.

You're looking for a 'problem' when really it's simply that some people don't like playing in the style I outlined above.

That's not a problem for those people, as they simply won't come to your tournaments.

Your tournaments may only be 20% WAAC* as compared to Warhammer Fantasy, but for some people that's 20% too much.

That's why the main rulebook also contains rules about scenarios and guidelines for creating your own units... because it takes pains to state repeatedly that 'Tournament Gaming' is only one of many ways to play the game.

No you don't ... I play exactly the same whether in a tournament or friendly and I'm sure other people do as well.

They don't ; you're different from them.

That's not a bad thing, they're just different from you.


Tournaments can be one of the best experiences in wargaming.

Yes they can be, for me.

For some they can be one of the worst experiences in wargaming.

However to get that experience you need to be open, embrace different playing styles that your not used to and most important learn from others.

You repeatedly state that you think that tournament gamers are more skilled at the game than non-tournament gamers, and that tournament gamers have a lot to teach non-tournament gamers (And by extention, that non-tournament gamers should be listening to what is said).

Read 'My Opinion' below, then look at that belief again through the prism of my opinion?






===My Opinion===


This topic is similar to one I brushed on with Rug at the Open War Tournament.

He was musing as to why GW didn't push Epic a bit more as it is one of the best game systems they've ever created.

I countered with (Something like) "Best is a very subjective term. For us, Epic is brilliant. For the most common GW customer**, it's a rubbish game. 'More Appropriate' is a term I like to use".

Epic is a 'More Appropriate' game than Warhammer 40,000 for wargamers who enjoy tactical complexity and a simulation-style approach.

Warhammer 40,000 is a 'More Appropriate' game than Epic for GW's core market.



Now:

Tournaments are a 'More Appropriate' environment for those who enjoy that kind of situation.

'Friendly Games' are a 'More Appropriate' environment for those who enjoy that kind of situation.


There is no 'better'.
There is no 'worse'.

There is no 'problem'

There is only More and Less appropriate.


Some people will never enjoy a tournament style game, and I think that laughing at them for saying so is... not appropriate.




* Or 'competative', or 'adversarial', or whatever.

** A child aged 11-14.
So your comparison is that your 'fluffy' IG can't beat a competitive BL army - not a very valid comparison you might as well infer from this that IG are underpowered as it is as valid.

I've played over 100 games with BL and I find IG are the most difficult army to beat - they have lots of WE killers Vultures, SSwords, tank companies, good flyers to make use of the limited BL AA cover,artillery that can make a mess of retinues and some formations that it is very difficult for the BL to kill.

The only way BL are going to kill a tank co. is through terminators. However this is a huge gamble - RA on both sides so kills are down to luck, automatic +1 for inspiring for the IG, sometimes another +1 for outnumbering, the high possiblity of gaining BMs through teleporting - especially if taking enough chosen to do the job. Add to that the fact that most players will screen the target with scouts and/or further protect them with OW infantry cos.

You never seem to mention the problems that BL have- no air assaults, no first strike ability bar terminators, complete inability to deal with titans (especially SM+eldar) and low activation count.

Regarding WAAC players you mention TRC as a self-confessed example - take a look at the stats last year he lost more sportsmanship points than everybody else combined. Tim as a 'powergamer' lost none.

Finally your 'friendly' games seem pretty restrictive

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Epic and WAAC
PostPosted: Fri May 01, 2009 2:59 pm 
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Quote: (alansa @ 01 May 2009, 14:50 )

Are you playing epic in the mode best suited to you E&C?

Well, I'd really like to play some tournament games with my Tyranids, or my Death Korps of Krieg.  :))

Indeed, part of my 'playing' of Epic is in writing new army lists.

1: It's competition! Not a roleplay


It's a competition with roleplay elements (However slim it may be for some players they're still using Toy Soldiers to enact a battle)... how much roleplay you want to add into the mix is up to each individual player.

3: sharing does happen, even though there's no rule that says it must

Not to the extent that it does in a friendly game.


How would you legistlate against a tripling objective grabbing stand of boyz in a competition.

You don't and noone would try to...

...but some players will want to charge their Ork Boyz unit against a Reaver Titan, just because it makes for a cool story...

...and for those players, EpicUK tournaments are not going to be appropriate.

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Epic and WAAC
PostPosted: Fri May 01, 2009 3:08 pm 
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Quote: (Steve54 @ 01 May 2009, 14:58 )

The only way BL are going to kill a tank co. is through terminators. However this is a huge gamble - RA on both sides so kills are down to luck...

Not at all.

With an average of 4 Daemons, the teleporting Terminators are going to have put all but 2 of the Leman Russ in base-to-base contact, meaning that while they are rolling 3's (And MW 3's, and TK 3's...) to hit the tanks, most of the tanks are rolling 6's in return.

Such engagements are almost invariably IG losses.

You never seem to mention the problems that BL have- no air assaults, no first strike ability bar terminators, complete inability to deal with titans (especially SM+eldar) and low activation count.


I don't mention that IG have no air assaults either... because the other aspects of the list (over?)compensate for this weakness.

you mention TRC as a self-confessed example - take a look at the stats last year he lost more sportsmanship points than everybody else combined.

Which only goes to show that WAAC / Powergaming does exist to an extent in EpicUK tournaments***?

Finally your 'friendly' games seem pretty restrictive

How so?


*** Which, I must restate, I think are great.




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alansa
 Post subject: Epic and WAAC
PostPosted: Fri May 01, 2009 3:21 pm 
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.but some players will want to charge their Ork Boyz unit against a Reaver Titan, just because it makes for a cool story...


I repeat, stuff like this sometimes does happen!

Here's a perfectly possible story for your mad ork charge in a tournament game:

It's near the end of turn 3 or 4. Everything is by now pretty battered. The Reaver has only 1DC left. But it does have a full complement of sheilds (it marshalled recently). The Reaver is looking tempting and, apart from the shields. fragile. But the orks have too little shooty stuff to take down the shields and get that last DC.
A lone stand of nearby orks, mork knows how they where brave enough, charge the Reaver getting inside the void shields and take the mutha out! The orks now have BTS.

Marching for an objective could have been equally risky, or more so, unless it's the last activation or there's no one left to drop a bm on it.

The game makes the story. Or the the story makes the game. There's two ways to play it epic.




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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Epic and WAAC
PostPosted: Fri May 01, 2009 3:22 pm 
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Quote: (Rug @ 01 May 2009, 15:19 )

I prefer the stories where the lone stand survives, takes an objective and wins the game to the ones where they get suicided- where is the sport? Where is the story?

Suicide is a Humie fing, Orks don't know nuffin abowt 'suicide'!

Dey is da Orkz!

Dey gots to do sum fightin instead of skulkin abowt like paffetic Humiez! Dey acted like proppa Orkz!

WAAAAAAGH!  :))


Overt subtext == Roleplaying as an Ork Warlord is different to the meta-game of trying to win a game of Epic, and some people may prefer the former, even to the detriment of the latter.




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Steve54
 Post subject: Epic and WAAC
PostPosted: Fri May 01, 2009 3:32 pm 
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Quote: (Evil and Chaos @ 01 May 2009, 15:08 )

Quote: (Steve54 @ 01 May 2009, 14:58 )

The only way BL are going to kill a tank co. is through terminators. However this is a huge gamble - RA on both sides so kills are down to luck...

Not at all.

With an average of 4 Daemons, the teleporting Terminators are going to have put all but 2 of the Leman Russ in base-to-base contact, meaning that while they are rolling 3's (And MW 3's, and TK 3's...) to hit the tanks, most of the tanks are rolling 6's in return.

Such engagements are almost invariably IG losses.

I disagree the Termies will probably score more kills but the RA does make it a gamble, and even with average kills - say +3 to BL then the resolution will still be a risk. You also fail to take into account the screening scouts, OW formations, teleport BMs and support from IG units.

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Ginger
 Post subject: Epic and WAAC
PostPosted: Fri May 01, 2009 3:34 pm 
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Lets get back to what is WAAC as opposed to 'power-gaming' and other modes or styles of play
- Where does one stop and the other start? Is this something mechanical (in the lists, etc) or physiological (in the player's attitude).
- How much does the environement impact this; do you get WAAC in 'friendly' games? What about campaigns?
- What is the antithesis of WAAC?
- etc

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Epic and WAAC
PostPosted: Fri May 01, 2009 3:56 pm 
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Quote: (Steve54 @ 01 May 2009, 15:32 )

I disagree the Termies will probably score more kills but the RA does make it a gamble, and even with average kills - say +3 to BL then the resolution will still be a risk.

The Terminator formation will then outnumber the Tank Company, giving the Terminators +4 combat resolution, against the IG's +3 (Assuming the Terminators picked up some blast markers when teleporting, and assuming the Commissar isn't dead from the Daemon Prince's TK attacks).

Barring odd luck, the Terminators should win handily.


Assuming they can get the teleport under favourable battlefield conditions, of course.

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Epic and WAAC
PostPosted: Fri May 01, 2009 3:59 pm 
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Quote: (Ginger @ 01 May 2009, 15:34 )

- Where does one stop and the other start? Is this something mechanical (in the lists, etc) or physiological (in the player's attitude).

A combination of attitude and list/rules exploitation.

- How much does the environement impact this; do you get WAAC in 'friendly' games? What about campaigns?

I suppose you can do, but WAAC players tend to get marginalised in non-tournament environments, until the only players who will play the WAAC chaps are other WAAC'ers.


- What is the antithesis of WAAC?

Lose At All Costs.  :))

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Steve54
 Post subject: Epic and WAAC
PostPosted: Fri May 01, 2009 4:02 pm 
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Quote: (Evil and Chaos @ 01 May 2009, 15:56 )

Assuming they can get the teleport under favourable battlefield conditions, of course.

Which 9/10 times won't happen, and having +1 in resolutionis hardly winning handily




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alansa
 Post subject: Epic and WAAC
PostPosted: Fri May 01, 2009 4:04 pm 
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I suppose you can do, but WAAC players tend to get marginalised in non-tournament environments, until the only players who will play the WAAC chaps are other WAAC'ers.


It's funny though. I don't know any WAAC'ers. But then I don't play 40K!

Are you simply suggesting that the majority average players voluntarily avoid the few good players because the don't want to lose/learn, where as in a tournament they are forced to play them (or lose on purpose to try and avoid them)?

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Epic and WAAC
PostPosted: Fri May 01, 2009 4:05 pm 
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Quote: (Steve54 @ 01 May 2009, 16:02 )

Quote: (Evil and Chaos @ 01 May 2009, 15:56 )

Assuming they can get the teleport under favourable battlefield conditions, of course.

Which 9/10 times won't happen, and having +1 in resolutionis hardly winning handily

Then it's the Black Legion player's job to do something about creating a favourable situation during turn 1/2...

...which is why Epic is good, it requires tactics and stuff!

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