So the salamander dred then costs 25-50 points mor than an assualt dred in another army. That fair? I know its an air assault thing, and the sallies have to pay more for their air assaults because of their MW FF capability of which the dred is part. Plus they aren't supposed to be as air assault reliant as core list.

Well I'm using my Thunderhawks with almost no regard to flak. I mean that I do my best to avoid it, but in most cases I will go to my target regardless on how much AA I have to fly through. So far I haven't lost a single T'hawk carrying units (you blew up my T'hawk CAS and not air assaulting force with the crit).

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We only got in 2 of the games instead of 3 because we ran out of time.  Also, we hadn't gotten together in a while, so there was a fair amount of jawing to be done (and a very fine Belizian rum to sample).

For those who are familiar with the E40K stuff, we ran the "Fog of War" scenario adapted to EA.  The first scenario turned out to be a small group of forces on each side with a very "in your face" set of missions so the Salamanders got up close and personal very quickly.  The second was a "kill them all" versus "take ground at all costs" scenario.  In that one only a few of the Salamanders ended up close as I focused on getting position to destroy as many orks as possible while they closed range.

I won both games.  I was inclined at first to think it was because I had plenty of AP/IC versus infantry-heavy forces, but in retrospect I fired very few flamer shots.  It actually had a lot more to do with a few critical die rolls.


Whirlwinds:  I knew the Helios weren't available to every formation with Close Support upgrade.  I just thought you could add them to Whirlwinds.  I must have misread the list.  The Whirlwinds are right below the LRs, which is "Commander, Close Support, Helios".

In any case, no one thought that 4 Whirlwinds + 2 Helios for 500 points was unbalanced.  Compared to 2 IG arty batteries or an arty company it seemed about right - about half the firepower of IG, but a lot more durable.  That's typical for Marines.

Performance-wise, they shrugged off a ground attack by 8 fightabommas.  Between being in cover and having the 4+RA, they only lost a Helios and a Whirlwind.  They were far enough away from the enemy that they auto-rallied, and went into the next turn with 1 BM for zero suppression.  Largely because the Fightabommas went on to other targets, they fired 2 of the 3 turns they were on the board for 6BP/4BP and had 0BM after the rally phase (in which I won).


Redeemer:  It wasn't that I was assuming that you could take Redeemers or Salamander LRs.  The list was pretty clear in that regard (even though I blatantly misread the Whirlwind/Helios bit).  I was confused over whether the original Salamander LRs were a "placemarker" intending to be replaced by the Redeemers once stats were ironed out.  I thought the Redeemer would be the specialist LR for the list and the Sallie LR would go away completely.

I thought the Redeemers did fine.  I added them liberally as you can see from the list.  Between the RA save for the vehicles and extra transport capacity only one formation ever lost enough transport that it was reduced to infantry speed, and that was because the LR went down to a bad save in the first volley (stupid Warhound Plasma guns...).

Ranged fire for them is, obviously, garbage.  However, they're good in close quarters and better than a Crusader in assaults against medium-heavy targets.  They have lower transport capacity than the Crusader, which is a not inconsiderable benefit of LRCs, but I think the Redeemers are worth as much as a normal LR.

In the first game, one of them was instrumental in killing a Warhound.  The formation was gutted - Redeemer, Dev, 2 Rhinos.  They pulled off a move/fire/support combo with my Warhound initiating the follow-on assault against the enemy Warhound.  Total was 6 AT hits (2 stripped shields, 4 hits = 2 points of damage) with the MWFF from the Redeemer as the killing blow.  If the Redeemer hadn't been there to shrug off hits the Dev formation wouldn't even have made it to the fight, much less packed enough firepower to finish off the Warhound.


Sallie LR:  I don't think it's needed and it definitely smacks of list creep because it's more for exactly the same price.  I understand the justification and I agree that point costs are often situational but this is a rather extreme example.  They were the one thing in the list that everyone raised eyebrows over, and I found myself a bit embarrassed about it.

I was only able to use them in one scenario, and half of them were killed by Zzap guns (while loaded, because I'm a dummy   ).  When I was able to use them, it was against an Ork Warband in cover and I would much rather have had Redeemers, both because of the AP/IC shots, and because if the warband had a chance to respond before I activated again, they would have assaulted with FF.  I "clipped" with ranged fire and killed enough close units the LRs couldn't be based.  The mob was so close to breaking that assault was its only viable option.


Pred Incinerator:  I never got to use these.  The shorter range was an issue with the Dev formation which stood back at near-max range in both games.  The Assault formation was absent from one scenario and only entered at the very end of the second.  None of the Incinerators made it to assault.  I wouldn't pair them with Devs again.  I'd leave them for Assault Marines and maybe an assault-oriented Tac formation, which is pretty specialized.


General:  I like the armor support of the infantry formations even more than in the Blood Angels list.  It had a nice hard-but-a-touch-slower SM feel to it.  I felt like lots of Tacs and Devs was a viable force without all the zippy fast assault that I normally rely on for activation count and maintaining mobility in a mud marine force.  I can see a potential issue or two if you loaded up on air assault with all that armor, but since you've played air-heavy lists more than I have I will defer to your opinion on that.

Both opponents remarked that it was pretty close fighting Codex Marines, which I think is a good thing because it means that there is not a "gotcha" factor to the list but it tacitly recognizes that it has a slightly different feel.


Suggestions:  I would cut the Salamander LR and leave just the Redeemer as the Sallie-specific LR pattern.  Maybe allow the LR formation and upgrade to interchange stock and Redeemer LRs freely.  That would leave the list with a bit less MW, but it has plenty of that from various sources.

I won't suggest the Whirlwind/Helios combo, but I do think it is balanced if you want to consider it.

Aside from that, I thought the list was great (from my 2 limited, non-GT games).

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Well break between games, that didn't go so well, as it was so quick getting another game in.

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Well could do it, no real change there. Though if the cost of redeemers goes to match LR the formation would cost 520.

Only question is should it be in a salamander list? Neat formation, should it be in it though? Or would you think its more of a Imperial Fists formation?

Sallie LR

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So if it was a choice between current stats and 85 points or 75 points and FF3+, which do you think would be better?

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Thank you for your input
That proofes my thoughts i had about the extra Multi-metla onthe Land Raiders. I don't think that adding them was that a good idea even if it is a fluffy one.
And is it really needed on the Redeemer? To me the Pintle-mounted Multi-melta is a signature weapon for the Land Raider Crusader.

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Right no time for a proper bat rep as I am flying to India in less than 48 hours and things are rather hectic.

Game one
Imperial Guard commanded by softhearted general
I say soft hearted because he had looked online, seen Henas proposed list and graciously didn't take 1+ shadowsword companies. All heart that lad.
Instead a rather staid Guard army list was formed (oh how insulting)
Russ
Hydra
SC
Hydra
Infantry
Fire support
Vultures
Storm troopers in valks
Manticores
Deathstrikes
Hydra bat
Thunderbolts

Somewhat light on flak in my opinion but apparently he was feeling magnanimous.

I was using the redeemers at 85 horde as suggested by Hena. The first thing I realised was Hena got his sums wrong as the proposed army comes to 3200. I was forced to re-jig to
Assault
Chap
2 redeemers
Devs
2 Redemers
SC
Devs
2 Redemers
Chaplain
Devs
2 Redemers
Librarian
Terminators
Chaplain
Attack bikes
Landing craft
Thunderhawk
Zero flak! Well the thunderhawk was there as a mobile flak battery. It also gave me some deep strike capability. In fact it then became an air assault option as the more I looked at the list the less confident I was. I figured some terminators kept henas MW theme and one lot of devs was dropped for them.
After studying this a bit I reckoned I could up the activations and MW count by trying the terminators in redeemers. Some more re-jigging and it became
Assault
Chap
Terminators
Chaplain
4 redeemers
Landing craft
Devs
SC
Hunter
Devs
Redemers
Devs
2 Redemers
Attack bikes
Scouts
thunderbolts
2995 (700 points on 'allies')
Somewhat annoyingly 295 left over so a redeemer went for a hunter (remember Hena max two extra vehicles) some scouts and some thunderbolts.

The plan was for a turn 2 attack - bizarrely leaving me hoping to lose the init first turn to increase the chance of winning it turn 2.


Standard 4 ruin, 4 hills 4 woods mix. Guard put their blitz centrally with their two objectives on the half way line. I had my blitz over in a corner with my two objectives near the guard blitz.

The deployments were unsurprising, though I realised the guard russ had a run almost to the two objectives down a corridor covered by the deathstrikes. The valks and vultures started on overwatch, with the vultures covering me popped up and the valks covering the guard. The Hydra covered practically the whole army with the deathstrikes and manticores close together and russ and sc on either side. The infantry company were off to one side in some ruins in what looked like a blatant attempt to bait the air assault down there (and apparently it was).

The scouts garrisoned with everyone else making themselves scarce behind terrain covered by the hunter.
The vulture/manticore combo was an annoying one, eventually I set up in the vehicles mostly bar the SC with the rhinos empty (ablative rhinos ).

Guard obligingly won the initiative. Tbolts capped.
And so begins the agony of advancing towards the imperial guard. With 7 activations, one of them the lander who wasn't doing much this turn, it wasn't going to take long.
The SC doubled up, deploying into cover and hiding from the guard, sadly not drawing vulture fire. The IG moved up the infantry rather than keep them on blit guard, maybe as a roadbump, we'll never know. The rest of the armies exchanged like this (avoiding each other) until eventually the vultures got to open up at some dev moving between cover, blowing away both empty rhinos, 1 redeemer and 1 stand. The survivors got shelled by the manticores and broke. Clearly I didn't retreat far enough as the SC came and had a go as well on a double, killing one infantry stand and disrupting another. In return it got strafed by the thunderbolts due to poor hydra placement and then the LC who got a bm from the thunderbolts (risky I know). The storm troopers  moved up and let rip at the SC formation. Last activation was the Leman Russ who... overwatched. Bugger.
Turn 2 went to me. I faced the problem of an overwatch castle at the rear (russ, manticores, deathstrikes and hydra) and the somewhat bm'ed SC out front with the stormtroopers and infantry nearby. It was throw everything at the russ and degrade their fire to the point they could be air assaulted, attack the van guard and move back (in the process I'm sure the LC would get deathstriked) or strike around the russ, try to trigger their overwatch fire while taking out their support and relying on the ra saves to weather the overwatch dice they throw out if not triggered by the time the air assault came in (AT2+, 10 AT5+, 11 AP4+, 11 AP5+). As a decisive individual I went for a mix.
The salamanders engaged some of the forward guard forces, the Sc and some devs supported by a couple of bikes hitting the guard SC (killing him) and breaking the formation. In return the SC got wiped out bar the hunter and a dev formation damaged by advancing stormtroops. The attack bikes manged to only bm the deathstrikes but get in a support position on the russ, the scouts broke the deathstrikes but in return were done by the hydra and vultures (should have gone after the bikes). This to and fro continued with eventually the bikes and some untouched devs near the russ who were covered by one integral hydra and one unsuppressed hydra, leaving behind them a fleeing hunter and shot up dev formation facing off against some broken mech, pristine infantry and damaged stormtroopers who got hit by some sharpshooting thunderbolts.
The LC cam ein and the game was over. The CAPing tbolts (who both got shot down) distracted the pilot from the Hydra who of course got a point of damage and a critical. I argued to continue and ignore that, but then the Russ rolled about twenty odd hits and I threw the towel in.

We had time after a break for a quick second game, me using what I thought was a slightly more flexible list. I thought the guard would stay but instead my brother beseeched the tourney Orks from the mansfield tourney and got those. Actually less models than the guard. I've realised I've spent so much time nattering packing time has been severely curtailed! So very short report.
Great Gargant
Big zap briagade
zap brigade
zap brigade
Skorcha mob
Big boyz
Big boyz
supa big big guns
Fighta bombers

Hmm to attack the GG or not? This was answered by a roll of 6 for shields. So ignoring him. Used the varient list on henas idea proposed yesterday with redeemers at 75 points.

300 Tac (BTS and SC )
075 SC
075 Red
075 Hunter

250 Dev
150 Red
050 Chap
250 Dev
150 Red
050 Chap
425 LC

250 Dev
150 Red

250 Warhound
200 Attack Bikes
150 Scouts
150 Thunderbolts

Well, maybe I'm not to good with henas idea. The Orks again copied the guard with the great gargant staying near the blitz, though he never managed to get on overwatch (with 12 shields I would have charged). The rest of the battle was in the middle of the table. The zaps largely fell to the warhound, though they did manage to kill the Landing craft turn two when it came in, with some ineffective flak providing a distraction. The redeemers burnt a fair number of orks out of cover but a dev formation I discovered could still be got in a firefight with cunning use of grotz. Somewhat unsurprisingly the orks lost most of their men but the mek weapons did do terrible things to marine armour. I was left at the end of the game having lost the BTS (to a combination of damage sources including that assault, fighter bombers and a random skorching) but with troops at both ork objectives, sadly one being contested. In return the orks had both my objectives contested and 2 survivng flaks threatening to get to the blitz next turn. The orks though had lost all the skorchas, 2/3's of the infantry including all the grotz and virtually all the blitz wagons. I was down the bts, about 1/2 the infantry (mostly to supergun hits) and had lost all but one rhino with 3 redeemers blown up, our fighters were all pristine.
The game had to end sadly turn 3 but I was well ahead on vp's and if the game continued I reckon the warhound especially could have done more damage and I had two mostly intact formations (the LC formations, down one of two infantry and a redeemer) in the centre to help deal with the orks. I might have been able to get it to 2-1, failing that I had a points win by at the very least a 500 point margin over my own losses. Here I think the previous LC with the terminators would have been better, at least I could have had a crack at the Gargant!
I'm not convinced the redeemer is that terrifying and I still think the attack bikes and speeders are balanced, so I await other thoughts and experiences.

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General Plumer, 191x

All the gw gamers i've talked to or seen their discussion online say they are going to be adding multi melta like mad to raiders, especially redeemers who have to get up close anyway. I think you will be finding in a years time MM's are the signature weapon for land raiders in general!

You could take it off but then what is the redeemer? The weapons fit is simply awful on a heavy tank in epic, so it may as well be a decent assault tank and it does seem to make sense to fit such a weapon if you can.

I guess the list can drop in power slightly with the removal of mm's from land raiders.

Will also up the redeemer cost to 85 for now and see how things go, putting it into a theoretic par with the other common variants.

However I wouldn't be surprised if the list again proves too tough - then again I've found it hard work in the past! - with both the 'raiders taking a hit. I still prefer the infantry as a source of MM fire. Not only is it comparable but its three units (2 infantry and a rhino) compared to one which is also handy for assaults.

Still not sure if the helios/whirlwind formation is salamandry or imperial guardy. It is mechanised, on the other hand it is a large barrage. Still whirlwinds are a good choice for a FF army - barrages make people spread out and become easier to FF.

So at some point I'll update the file to give terminators the choice of tranport, remove the MM raider option, increase the cost of the Redeemer and add Helios to the whirlwinds.

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"Gentlemen, we may not make history tomorrow, but we shall certainly change the geography."
General Plumer, 191x

Is this itentional that yo keep the Rhinos if you add further transport vehicles (Land Raiders)?

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Yes, is the only way other than making them able to add a bunch of tanks that a marine mechanised formation can keep going. Tried a load of different things, was the only thing to work, and had the advantage that unlike an air assault marine list mechanised strategy of a hunter and razorback this slowed the formation down as well and made them look a bit more high tech.

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"Gentlemen, we may not make history tomorrow, but we shall certainly change the geography."
General Plumer, 191x

I always payled so that you can't have more transport spaces than is minimum needed to transport the formation.

I think there should be a separate Transport Upgrade.
Wording perhabs as this:

Transport
Choose theminimum number of vehciles from this list to transport the whole formation:
Drop Pods (All Infantry and Dreadnought units are loaded into drop pods. Any other units are lost) Free
Rhino Free
Razorback +25pts
Land Raider +85pts
Land Raider Redeemer +75pts
0-1 Land Raider Prometheus +85pts

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You can go to that system BL but then you don't have a mechanised list. Marines are unique in having better armour than their transports. Guard and orks have two advantages - they die quicker than the armour and if they do run out of space losing a man is no great shakes.

Marines are opposite. The rhinos die more easily than the men and each unit can cost up to 75 points each. That is why the marine list became an air assault list, it was just the only good way of reliably delivering troops. Sure you can back them with mechanised formations, always with the ablative razorback and often a hunter to take hits, but here it works as the thrust of your attack comes from teleporters, air assaulters and warengines (normally warhounds) so the rhinos don't get stripped so readily.

I think marine ground pounders were tried extensively and you'll notice those that are sucessful use a lot of bikes speeders and air delivered troops. At a pinch armour formations. All these things are self motorised and not burdened with rhinos.

The alternate way of doing it is to add tanks (like the blood angels) as that keeps the speed up as well.

So went for a middle route. Brought in tougher razorback rules (no free razorback can be added without stranding someone) and tanks - Land Raider tanks in fact Not as fast as others but with carrying capacity. Now its harder to knock out the transports which keeps the mobility up to a basic level and compensates for the troops other marine armies rely on being so scarce. Ta da, unique style of fighting for marines in Epic.

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"Gentlemen, we may not make history tomorrow, but we shall certainly change the geography."
General Plumer, 191x

Hmm ok. Sounds reasonable. Problem is i don`t see marines as a tank force. They are elite infantry not elite tanks*.
Same holds true for the Salamanders. I don`t even think that the Land Raider Redeemer should be THAT prominent in the list.
Remember that the Salamanders did't invent it. Yes the Flatestorm Cannons scream that the Salamanders should use the Redeemer but not in all instances in favour for the standart Land Raider.

For rarety i see it so:
For every LR Prometheus there are two LR Redeemer or LR Helios.
For every LR Redeemer or LR Helios there are two LR Crusaders.
For every LR Crusader there are two standard LR.

* You know the first draft for the Salamanders only where the Codex list plus upgrades for Salamander Tacticals/Devastators and restriction on the Fast Attack choices.
In essence the same small scale of modifications the White Scars have compared to the Codex list.

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Agree on the tank force hence not going down the blood angels path and adding lots of tanks to formations (hell reguar marines can add 3). The raider was a neat compromise that also of course made them slower and using them in moderation allows the better in combat sally marines to be added.

Well you would like my normal armies. Despite Henas faith I don't rate the redeemer. For me salamander marines are superior. I get the numbers and the firepower. Instead I add 1 regular land raider to each lead formation (about 2 out of every 3 mech formations) which in a 3000 point game gives me 2-4 raiders depending on list make up. This not only doesn't go overboard on points allowing more formations and bigger formations of marines but also gives much needed AT firepower. Personally I like to shoot up the enemy on the way in, something the redeemer is useless at. In fact I'd challenge people to play games first with redeemers then regular raiders. I found regular raiders (well they had the pintle MM as well) superior every time. Remeber the extra range counts more for them as typically after teh first double they have gone from the front of the formation to the back as they are 10cm behind the rhinos doubling speed.

Hence in fact making the redeemers cheaper to try and balance them.

The promethius sadly is not that hot and after my repeated attempts to use it normally gets left at home I can envisage armies that could use it, but they aren't that reliable enough to be tourney armies. Still if b some miricle my devs found themselves short of AP shots they might want them for that

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General Plumer, 191x

Edited my posting above

@ armybuilding: I tend to build my armies araound a full Salamanders Battle Company, then i add additional infantry and tank detachments.
A Tactical Detachment with Salamander Tacticals with Captain and 2-3 Razorbacks is always my center and it is really hard to move
But then i don't think that competetive...i always try to build a fluffy army

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