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Aspect: Tau Units

 Post subject: Aspect: Tau Units
PostPosted: Sat Nov 15, 2008 9:23 pm 
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Quote: (Hena @ 15 Nov. 2008, 19:30 )

GM rule as itself is not overpowering. No one has been able to show that anywhere. What breaks it is the current Markerlight Sentry and it's special rule, which also breaks as easily in any other suggestion of GMs thrown around. So opposing it as breaking from game point of view makes little sense.

As I said, it's not that it's overpowered, it's that it's unfun and unrepresentative of the background.

With the current rules, GM vehicles can sit back and sling shots in no matter what, the definition of a gunline. With the change other Tau troops have to come forward to mark the targets, making for a much more enjoyable playstyle.

And once again, let me quote the Tau codex:

The Vehicle carrying the seeker missiles has no control over them and cannot launch them itself. The mechanism is remote and only responds to Markerlight users.


As far as Necrons go. In here, most people refuse to play against Pylon for it's ridiculous AA weapon *shrug*.


Oddly in my experience Pylons are overpriced/underpowered when taken on their own, (due to only taking 2 BMs to break) what makes them overpowered is the ability to take up to 5 in 3000 points. One pylon is pretty poor, 2 is excellent, 3 or more is broken. That's kinda OT though...




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 Post subject: Aspect: Tau Units
PostPosted: Sat Nov 15, 2008 9:56 pm 
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Quote: (Lion in the Stars @ 15 Nov. 2008, 20:04 )

OK, CS, I think it's time for a nudge on what you want us to test.  looks like everyone's set down their grudgestones and isn't willing to budge again.

Well I almost have :)

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 Post subject: Aspect: Tau Units
PostPosted: Sun Nov 16, 2008 1:21 am 
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Quote: (Evil and Chaos @ 16 Nov. 2008, 02:07 )

Quote: (Onyx @ 15 Nov. 2008, 09:34 )

The solution is in between us all not at any one persons perspective.

Which is of course a personal opinion.  :))

Thankfully, I'm not quite gifted enough to believe I have all the answers here... :whistle:  :smile:

Here's another quote to support the style of Tau warfare potrayed by the existing rules.
"A phalanx of heavy fire hammered the palace, round after round, relentless and merciless. The Tau were blasting the Space Marines out from a distance.."

IA3 pg28.

Unfortunately, it doesn't matter if it's boring... THATS how they fight.

Please understand, I'm not calling for the status quo to continue. I understand the need for some changes, just not as many as others want.




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 Post subject: Aspect: Tau Units
PostPosted: Sun Nov 16, 2008 2:17 pm 
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Quote: (Hena @ 16 Nov. 2008, 07:06 )

The broken aspect is that they shut down air. No ifs or buts in that. Only Orks can waste fighta bommas in play while those are around. I don't care if you can break them easily. If they break part of a game, it's wrong.

Why not take this part of the discussion to the Necrons forum?

P.S. Pylons are easily neutralized with non-air assets before you send in air assets.

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 Post subject: Aspect: Tau Units
PostPosted: Mon Nov 17, 2008 11:02 pm 
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Quote: (Onyx @ 15 Nov. 2008, 17:21 )

Here's another quote to support the style of Tau warfare potrayed by the existing rules.
"A phalanx of heavy fire hammered the palace, round after round, relentless and merciless. The Tau were blasting the Space Marines out from a distance.."

IA3 pg28.

Unfortunately, it doesn't matter if it's boring... THATS how they fight.

And that particular scene was where a Marine detachment had drop-podded in to execute the Governor, only to run into Tau rapid-response forces after smashing the Palace and before getting extracted.  Also, compared to Marines on foot, everyone has longer-ranged fire.  Tau just are at the farther end of the spectrum.  Honestly, IG outrange Marines on foot.

It's worth noting that IA3 was released before the 4e Tau Empire codex came out, and written (I think) before the 4e rulebook came out.  That was the time when Tau had to fight at range (because you could only rapid-fire if you remained stationary or had abilities that let you count as being stationary), since they'd get assaulted and rolled without any response possible if the enemy got within rapid-fire range.  It's not very fun to have your entire army assaulted and wiped out unit by unit without being able to do anything about it in response, and that's the single biggest change between 40k3e and 40k4e (the change to 'rapid-fire' weapons).

When replaying that scenario with 4e rules, the Fire Warriors always close in to rapid-fire range (whether I'm playing them or another Tau player is), where they are most effective.  

There seems to be a lot of complaints about the Gunline (3e army) being not fun to play against.  The Tau weren't very fun to play against in 3e.  All you had to do to beat them was have a single assault squad get into CC at one end of their army, and you'd wipe out the entire Tau army (roll up a flank, then roll across the center, and finish by rolling down the other flank).  In order to win, all you had to do was be willing to eat the casualties, or have more assault units than the Tau could shoot to death.  The opening game wasn't fun for the non-Tau player, and the endgame wasn't fun for the Tau player, so nobody wanted to play the new race (issue caused by 3e rule mechanics, changed in 4e)

Other people want the 4e-flavored list, where Tau work closer to the enemy and smash (break or destroy) one (or more) formation(s) per turn.  In 40k4e, that operational style is called the Fish of Fury, and is a very GT-competitive force.  I've had players complain about the Crisis horde I used to run, because the terrain at the shop favored the "I'm up, I shoot you, I'm down" jump-from-behind-cover-shoot-jump-back-behind-cover Crisis suits.  Then I moved to a store where there wasn't anywhere near as much terrain, and haven't won a game since (nobody wants to play on a board with 25-33% terrain coverage, and Tau *need* that much terrain to survive).

=====

As I've asked before, are we: 1) trying to make a (3e) Tau army, where it's all about the long range, keep the enemy as far away as possible (with little movement by the Tau); or 2) trying to make a (4e) Tau Empire army, where you have some good long-ranged weapons, but maneuver to fire at best effect?  

CS, can we get a specific answer on which version (1 or 2) you want to build?  Until we get a specific answer, there's going to be a lot of emplaced grudgestones around here.  Your answer of "Synergy" implies that you want a 4e/Maneuver-to-fire style list (like I do).  This means that the entire army list needs to be reviewed for units that don't support Maneuver-to-fire.  IMO, that's the Markerlight turrets, and the current GM rule.  Markerlight turrets don't force maneuvering (=bad), and being able to fire GMs without marked targets also doesn't force maneuvering.

The Tau *could* be a non-Engaging version of Astartes or Eldar (that's certainly what they are in 40k4e/5e).  Moving faster than most mechanized armies, and smashing one or two target formations per turn with co-fire.  Eldar are certainly faster than Tau, but operate in the "engagement-of-their-choice" mode, as opposed to the Tau's "firefight-of-their-choice"

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 Post subject: Aspect: Tau Units
PostPosted: Mon Nov 17, 2008 11:20 pm 
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Lion in the Stars makes some excellent points.

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 Post subject: Aspect: Tau Units
PostPosted: Mon Nov 17, 2008 11:24 pm 
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IA:3 was released during 4thedition, a couple of months before the latest Tau Codex.




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 Post subject: Aspect: Tau Units
PostPosted: Tue Nov 18, 2008 10:00 am 
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Quote: (Lion in the Stars @ 18 Nov. 2008, 05:02 )

Quote: (Onyx @ 15 Nov. 2008, 17:21 )

Here's another quote to support the style of Tau warfare potrayed by the existing rules.
"A phalanx of heavy fire hammered the palace, round after round, relentless and merciless. The Tau were blasting the Space Marines out from a distance.."

IA3 pg28.

Unfortunately, it doesn't matter if it's boring... THATS how they fight.

And that particular scene was where a Marine detachment had drop-podded in to execute the Governor, only to run into Tau rapid-response forces after smashing the Palace and before getting extracted.  Also, compared to Marines on foot, everyone has longer-ranged fire.  Tau just are at the farther end of the spectrum.  Honestly, IG outrange Marines on foot.

Yes, I've read all that aswell.

Of course it should be mentioned that the Tau had already tried a direct assault and been beaten badly (the term mauled is used in the book) by the Marines. Why would Tau want to fight at close quarters (of course everyone gets beaten by Marines at close quarters)? They fought the same way at the Hydro Plant. Long range bombardment followed up by clean-up.

Changing the way Turrets play so that they can only garrison objectives will help a lot in removing the GM's hitting the enemy deployment zone (turrets become a back-up). Reducing weapons ranges on Support Craft will help in the same way. It will force Tetras (my new favourite unit) etc. into closing with the enemy so that the GM's can fire effectively.

I don't believe wholesale changes need to made to get the Tau to fight how many here want. Just some tinkering with the details.

I've managed to get hold of the Tau Codex aswell so I'll be able to confirm for myself all the statements based on that book too.




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 Post subject: Aspect: Tau Units
PostPosted: Tue Nov 18, 2008 10:16 am 
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I've had a quick interesting idea and probably won't work but what if you make ML units like tetras 3 per formation so you can putthem in harms way but you don't lose a whole formation of 6 to one shooting volley? What would happen then is that you have too many activatons right? Answer? They can only activate with an adjusted co-ord fire/Gm rule whereby units with GMs essentially do the firing. This means you wouldn't have extra activations because the tetras and the Gm unit are the activation.. It's like the proposal about only the ML unit can activate the GMs

like i said a quick brainstrom idea - not really thought it through. I'm sure there are holes


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 Post subject: Aspect: Tau Units
PostPosted: Tue Nov 18, 2008 9:58 pm 
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Quote: (Evil and Chaos @ 17 Nov. 2008, 15:24 )

IA:3 was released during 4th edition, a couple of months before the latest Tau Codex.

Released during 4th, but the lead time on a book is significant, on the order of 12 months or more.  Also, Tau were one of the first codecii released in 4th edition, shortly after the Space Marines codex.

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 Post subject: Aspect: Tau Units
PostPosted: Tue Nov 18, 2008 10:09 pm 
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Quote: (Lion in the Stars @ 18 Nov. 2008, 20:58 )

Quote: (Evil and Chaos @ 17 Nov. 2008, 15:24 )

IA:3 was released during 4th edition, a couple of months before the latest Tau Codex.

Released during 4th, but the lead time on a book is significant, on the order of 12 months or more.

Indeed, and the lead time on a Codex is long too... whilst the lead time on a rulebook is of a similar time... so, what was your point really? :)

Plus, FW had blatantly read the Tau codex before it came out as IA:3 includes references to rules which only exist in the 4th edition Tau Codex.




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 Post subject: Aspect: Tau Units
PostPosted: Wed Nov 19, 2008 1:10 am 
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Yes, they had seen a preview of the Tau Empire codex.  The question is, did they play the original games of the campaign under the 3e rules, or the 4e rules?

If they used the 3e rules, that explains some of the oddities of the battle write-ups.  Firewarriors are most effective when transported by devilfish in 4e, and there was a serious lack of DFish in the example cadres used in the book (and the historical refight scenarios).  This was a desert war, which favors tanks and mechanized/air-assault infantry.  There was some air-assault (Orca- or Manta-borne) infantry, but very little mechanized infantry, even in the scenario where the Tau were counter-attacking an Imperial position.

In any case, this is a tangent off of what we need to be discussing.

=====

A much better question is how can we make an army that weakens the opponent with long-range direct fire (followed by a close-range shootout) fun/interesting to play against, and not just be a slog into the teeth of defenses and taking the casualties?

I think everyone here agrees that Tau should have good ranged capabilities.  Right now, they are slightly outgunned by the IG if you include superheavies, while that should the reverse (Tau slightly outgun IG at range).  90cm AP4+/AT5+/MW5+ Guided Missiles that can only be fired at markerlit targets would change the dynamic considerably.  The Scorp'fish would be completely useless without ML support, and Stingrays would be limited to 30cm.  This *could* also be coupled to a change to the aircraft stats, adding a ML to those units that carry one in 40k (AX10), and forcing the aircraft GMs to have a spotter on the ground (increase range of affected missiles to 45cm) if the aircraft doesn't have a ML to allow aircraft GMs to be used at all.

This forces the Tau player to take Tetras (6xLV5+), Pathfinders (2xAV5+, 4xINF5+), and Stealth teams (6xINF5+), all of which have to be within 30cm of the enemy at the end of their movement, and which are relatively fragile.  Formations of 6x units with a 5+ save get broken/destroyed quickly.  Also, Stealth teams cannot call a Co-fire, which pushes even more emphasis onto the Tetras and Pathfinders.  Further, if I was the Tau's opponent, I would actively target the Co-fire capable units, because that will dramatically reduce the effectiveness of the Tau army.  

If you wanted to smash a Russ Company, you'd need to Co-fire, starting with a unit of Tetras, doubling them forward, stopping just outside the ZoC of the Russ Company (to maximize #s marked), then advance and fire with two AHMCs (preferably popping up):  1 BM from the Tetras, one BM and 7 hits from each AHMC+Skyray.  14 hits = 3.5 kills on 4+RA, let's say 4 kills since the Tau were lucky. 1+1+1+4 kills=7 BMs, on a unit that was 11-strong before this.  With a bit of luck, I just barely broke a 700-point LRuss company (assuming the obligatory Hydra) after hitting it with at least 1075 points of Tau.  Additionally, I sacrificed a unit of Tetras to do try to break the Russes, because any unsuppressed Russ (and the Hyrda) will chew up the Tetras.  

If I'm going artillery-hunting, I need a Stealth team to teleport in (and not get broken in the process) and either a successful retain on a GM unit, or for the Stealths to survive standing next to the artillery for an activation (or two, in case the IG retain).  Then I can rain GMs on the Artillery's head (Stingrays + Skyray).  1BM for the Stealths, and 1BM + 2 hits from the counter-battery.  2 hits on AV5+ is 1.67 kills, and that's 3BM (4 if I'm lucky), not quite enough to break a Basilisk battery+Hydra (unless IG has bad dice for armor saves).  575 points of Tau to probably break a 300 point artillery battery with attached flak.

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 Post subject: Aspect: Tau Units
PostPosted: Wed Nov 19, 2008 1:30 am 
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The question is, did they play the original games of the campaign under the 3e rules, or the 4e rules?


The scenarios?

As far as I know, they weren't played by anyone, they were just written and printed... just like the ones in Raiders.

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 Post subject: Aspect: Tau Units
PostPosted: Wed Nov 19, 2008 1:54 am 
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Quote: (Evil and Chaos @ 18 Nov. 2008, 17:30 )

The question is, did they play the original games of the campaign under the 3e rules, or the 4e rules?


The scenarios?

As far as I know, they weren't played by anyone, they were just written and printed... just like the ones in Raiders.

Hmmm... If that's the case, then no wonder the scenario forces are weird.  At any rate, that's a tangent we don't need to wander down any further.

If you're going to put your grudgestone down here, let me ask you this:  How do we make an army that uses long-range shooting (which the Tau depend on more than any other faction) NOT be a gunline?  

Gunlines depend on Line of Sight, but we can't really force people playing Tau to have more terrain on their opponent's side of the board, so controlling LoS isn't really an option.  

Reducing the range forces maneuvering, but then it's not long-range fire.

Forcing tradeoffs (like making GMs only able to shoot at marked targets and losing the Markerlight turrets to Section 6) so that you can either have half to two-thirds of your long-range firepower and few units in range, or put some valuable-but-fragile units close to the enemy and outgun him by a third makes a much more interesting game, that feels less like a gunline than it actually is.  This also opens up 'bait-and-smash' tactics to the Tau player, which are a codex-mentioned alternative to the Patient Hunter gunline.

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