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House Hyperion Knightworld V1.02

 Post subject: House Hyperion Knightworld V1.02
PostPosted: Tue May 13, 2008 2:07 pm 
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Semaj and I and a couple other guys played a 6K Titan/Knight battle (about 3500 titans, 2500 knights) against SMs w/ max 1/3 titans over the weekend.

The lists seemed to work pretty well, but in the end the activation count was the killer.  The titan list was tooled up expecting closer to 4000 points of enemy titans.  Once the Marines picked off a few activations, just laying blast markers on everything started causing problems, even with a Supreme Commander.  Retain actions became dicey for the titans/knights even with rerolls available and not worth the risk without a reroll waiting.  SMs won 3-1 (BTS, Blitz, T&H versus BTS).  The mutual BTS was from a titan v titan suicide shootout, which was fun.

The Triple TLDs are wicked.  +25 points (compared to the Double-barrel) is roughly +4% to cost on a Reaver and +3% to cost on a Warlord.  It adds roughly +15% (+50% to 1/3 of the weapons is 1/6, rounded down) and +10% (+1/8, rounded down) to firepower, respectively.  In the abstract, that's too cheap.  In a lower-point game, there are other mitigating factors, primarily the fact that taking high-er point weapons will cause loss of activations.  However, in a higher-point game with a list designed to make activation count less of a consideration they would be the obvious choice.

That's not to say I think they are broken or definitely need changed, just that it's something to keep an eye on.


The knights played very well.  Those suckers are fast, tough, and there's no good way to assault them.  They simply have to be shot to death.  I have a feeling that they are extremely vulnerable to large barrages.  2-3 automatic BMs will break them in short order and once broken they crumble.  They seem to be sort of all-or-nothing in that respect.  If you have the tools to use against them (high volume AT or barrages), they die quick and fast.  Outside of that, they can usually whip more than their points worth without any trouble.

That's also just an observation.  I don't suggest it's a problem, just that it may make finding a balance quite tricky.

Knight Shield - I think the rule needs to be clarified a bit with respect to CC.  It's easily possible to have a unit in base contact, where the shield does not work, hit with support FF, which it seems like it should work against.  In the primary assault, it's clear that CC = no shield, and all the hits are just "hits" so anything allocated should bypass the shield.  However, since support is a separate step, it's providing strictly FF hits.  So, does the base contact/CC/no shield still work, or does it work because the support is all FF?

===

On a side note, my 375 point Pred/Hunter formation gutted a 500 point knight formation using the same tactics I've always said worked - Advance at the end of the turn, Sustain Fire on the following turn.  They died soon after, but they soaked up fire from 1300 points of formations before dying.  Of course, that was all Pred Annihilators.  I still don't see much use for the others.

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 Post subject: House Hyperion Knightworld V1.02
PostPosted: Tue May 13, 2008 2:45 pm 
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Knight Shield - I think the rule needs to be clarified a bit with respect to CC.  It's easily possible to have a unit in base contact, where the shield does not work, hit with support FF, which it seems like it should work against.  In the primary assault, it's clear that CC = no shield, and all the hits are just "hits" so anything allocated should bypass the shield.  However, since support is a separate step, it's providing strictly FF hits.  So, does the base contact/CC/no shield still work, or does it work because the support is all FF?


Perhaps the rule is simply too fiddly for Firefights in any case... in fact, where were the TK hits coming from in a Firefight from Marines in the first place?

Did the Marines also use variant Titans?


Many thanks for your observations, I'm currently mulling over the next update of the list.

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 Post subject: House Hyperion Knightworld V1.02
PostPosted: Tue May 13, 2008 3:19 pm 
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(nealhunt @ May 13 2008,09:07)
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The knights played very well.  Those suckers are fast, tough, and there's no good way to assault them.  They simply have to be shot to death.

That's pretty much my observation as well. They can be brutal in CC. I've seen my Knights defeat Dave's larger Tyranid formations in CC, but they are fragile. The next time I play them, I might try taking a formation of 6 Knights, rather than two formations of 3. It would, of course, mean fewer activations, but the formations would be more durable.

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 Post subject: House Hyperion Knightworld V1.02
PostPosted: Tue May 13, 2008 4:06 pm 
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(Evil and Chaos @ Mar. 22 2008,05:40)
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I'm no expert on Knight fluff, but did the Errant and Lancer have the same armour values as the Paladin?  It seems to me that much of a speed difference means you're going to have to sacrifice some armour.  Thoughts on 5+RA for them?


All of the Knight stats bar the Warden were taken from AMTL v2... I simply assumed that it was correct.

I asked DS about the Knight stats and he suggested taking a look at the NetEpic ones. If these are similar to the SM/TL stats I would suggest:

25cm move for the Lancer
20cm move for the Errant

Also, maybe a 25cm move for the Baron as well.

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 Post subject: House Hyperion Knightworld V1.02
PostPosted: Tue May 13, 2008 4:15 pm 
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Perhaps the rule is simply too fiddly for Firefights in any case... in fact, where were the TK hits coming from in a Firefight from Marines in the first place?

It was MW from Speeders that caused the question, actually.  It didn't make any difference, as it's a single 4+ save regardless of whether that's shield or RA but it raised the question.

Did the Marines also use variant Titans?
Nope.  Straight book stats.  1 Warlord, 1 Reaver, 2 Warhounds.

==

One idea that came up in the AABS (after action bull session) was to reduce the speed of the Lancer and Errant knights and give them Infiltrate.  20cm Infiltrate would give them longer assault range but slow down other kinds of maneuver a bit - just a slightly different style.

Another idea was to stop duplication of Knight and non-Knight formation capabilities.  Keep them doing separate tasks.  Specifically, don't have generic IG-style arty when you have knights kitted out with IDF BP weapons.  Formations will be expensive and activations important, making the non-Knight formations the logical choice for arty in most armies, leaving out the Castellans (or is it Crusaders?).

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 Post subject: House Hyperion Knightworld V1.02
PostPosted: Tue May 13, 2008 4:29 pm 
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(nealhunt @ May 13 2008,11:15)
QUOTE
One idea that came up in the AABS (after action bull session) was to reduce the speed of the Lancer and Errant knights and give them Infiltrate.  20cm Infiltrate would give them longer assault range but slow down other kinds of maneuver a bit - just a slightly different style.

That would certainly play into the fluff.  Errants are supposed to be young knight looking to prove themselves, Lancers are the veteran mavericks. It would make sense to me that they would be charging headlong at the enemy when they get close enough (especially if that fluff Neal posted about the Throne is worked into this list's fluff).

20cm Infiltrate for both of them would be fun to try.  I don't think there are any infiltrating WEs yet...

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 Post subject: House Hyperion Knightworld V1.02
PostPosted: Mon Oct 13, 2008 1:43 am 
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I played a small game vs KW on Saturday.

I played a 1750 point game and my opponent fielded 9 Lancers/Errants in a single formation. By turn 2 he had crossed the table and brought my 6 Hammerheads into CC/FF. Several first strikes(not sure it was exactly 9 but it was close) later I had no tanks left and I did no hits with the one attack I had available.

I would like to suggest toning down how many knights fit in a formation i.e the add-ons. I don't mind they hit hard and run fast and are reasonably fragile to shooting - they seemed correctly pointed. What I think they need is to down size the possible formation size. Too many first strike (I think MW) attacks is a bit OTT.


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 Post subject: House Hyperion Knightworld V1.02
PostPosted: Mon Oct 13, 2008 2:01 am 
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Weren't you playing with a 4+ invulnerable save for knights against all shooting, making them twice as effective as normal?

Hammerheads are skimmers, he can't close combat you.

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 Post subject: House Hyperion Knightworld V1.02
PostPosted: Mon Oct 13, 2008 3:11 am 
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Lancers & Errants do have some First Strike/MW firefight attacks.

For 650pts you get a fast formation with very short ranged weapons (30cm) and highly potent Firefight attacks.

I'd consider adding an extra 50pts to the Upgrades/Formations here and there, if this proves to be a consistent problem, but as Zombocom points out, you may have been playing several rules wrong in your game, and who knows how that may have affected things both before and during this one Engagement (And frankly Tau Hammerheads should lose Engagements against any 650pt engagement-biased formation).

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 Post subject: House Hyperion Knightworld V1.02
PostPosted: Mon Oct 13, 2008 1:49 pm 
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Yeah, I used the Knight shield rule as a seperate saving throw to shooting (4+ shield save, then a normal 4+ reinforced save...) as I didn't understand the wording. Not sure if i do still... so the shield is just the knights normal 4+ reinforced save, but it gets to make a single save roll versus a titan killer weapon? (and a normal non-rerolled 4+ against shooting MW?) In a crossfire or base combat, does the knight lose the ability to save against titan killer weapons or does the knight lose its saving throw altogether?

Versus the hammerheads, I didn't know that you can't hit skimmers in base contact when I went in (first game after all!) but being war engines they could choose to use their firefight ans small arms attacks instead anyhow, of which the lancers and errants have several first strike and MW extra attacks.

I got wiped out versus some hoppy necrons tonight in a similar style to the tau (except a group of necron warriors/scarab/whatever smashed my 650 point lancer/errant unit in an assault- go figure) Whilst i was playing that the shield only provides a save to titan killers, maybe you should give them another run before you write them off Dobbsy




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 Post subject: House Hyperion Knightworld V1.02
PostPosted: Mon Oct 13, 2008 2:25 pm 
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Can I check the shield stats:

Against normal shooting: a reinforced armour save (Shield does not confer any benefit).

Against macro weapons: A single armour save (for being reinforced- shield still gives no benefit).

Against Titan Killer Weapons: A single shield save against each TK hit (damage rolls apply afterward). Crossfire would negate this.

In close combat, as above, except that the shield would not give a save against a TK CCW.





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 Post subject: House Hyperion Knightworld V1.02
PostPosted: Mon Oct 13, 2008 2:36 pm 
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Assuming a DC1 Knight with a 4+ RA save and a Knight Shield:


Against a normal hit: 4+ save, re-rollable.
Against a MW hit: 4+ save.
Against a TK hit: 4+ save.
Against a TK(dx) hit: One 4+ save per point of damage (So a Volcano Cannon that rolls a 3 would mean that the Knight would have to take 3 4+ saves and pass them all or die)

Against a TK hit whilst caught in a crossfire: No Save at all.
Against a TK hit that was inflicted in Close Combat: No Save at all.

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 Post subject: House Hyperion Knightworld V1.02
PostPosted: Mon Oct 13, 2008 2:46 pm 
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Thanks mate. That's how I played it tonight (there were no TK this time though) and they did not appear to be as superpowered as the first time I played them with the shield as an extra save. Especially as I couldn't engage the teleporting necrons!

The one time I did get in a position to use the barons command on 2 formations of rough riders nearby him (as I wanted to try out), unfortunately the only thing I could assault were heavy destroyer skimmers, thus i was rolling 12 laspistol shots on 6's :p




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 Post subject: House Hyperion Knightworld V1.02
PostPosted: Mon Oct 13, 2008 2:52 pm 
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Well, 4+,4+ is a 75% chance to pass an armour save, whilst 4+,4+,4+ (As you played the first time round) is an 87.5% chance to pass an armour save... no wonder the were a little OTT.  :)


I'm glad you're enjoying playing games with the Knights!

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 Post subject: House Hyperion Knightworld V1.02
PostPosted: Mon Oct 13, 2008 6:11 pm 
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Why has the Palladin still got the autogun stats, the barrel  under the battlecannon is the recoil buffer not an autogun.


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