In epic you hit a problem with fragile heavily armed units. They are very hard to cost (likewise the reverse). So if the Moray is quite fragile getting the points balance right for the current armament would be quite hard.

_________________
If using E-Bay use this link to support Tac Com!
'Abolish red trousers?! Never! Red trousers are France!' – Eugene Etienne, War Minister, 1913
"Gentlemen, we may not make history tomorrow, but we shall certainly change the geography."
General Plumer, 191x

Sorry.  Pet peeve here.


All kinds of things can break the game even if they are perfectly balanced with respect to points/power.  Something that can never be countered and that the enemy must simply suffer is not fun.  Likewise, things that rely too heavily on random chance are not fun.  Enough of that in a list screws up the game, regardless of the relative point/power balance.

With respect to high-power units, rather than making the game overly reliant on chance, it makes the game too reliant on army design.  If you're equipped to counter the uber-unit you win.  If not, you lose.  It's rock-paper-scissors with army design.

Not fun.

_________________
Neal

So everytime your opponent plops down a Warlord and you haven't built an army to deal with it, you just give up...

No, you find a way to win despite the "uber-unit" facing you. Sorry guys, but that argument doesn't doesn't really hold up (I mean no insult to you both and I have great respect for your experience).

A Warlord is powerful but you have to pay about a third of your pts on it (for 3000pt game). THAT IS THE BALANCING FACTOR. If the uber-unit costs so much that it reduces total activations for the army then that is the balancing factor.

My opponents don't enjoy it when I use 3 formations of Terminators but they would never even dream of asking me not to field them and they wouldn't stop using Terminators themselves. Point is rock-paper-scissors is already part of the game. Balanced list building is as much part of the game as rolling dice.

There is no way that a Moray "can never be countered". Placing 3 blast markers is within the reach of any list and the thing can't hide.

_________________
Just call me Steve.

NetEA Rules Chair
NetEA FAQ

Want to play Iron Warriors in Epic Armageddon? Click HERE
Some of my Armies.
My Hobby site.

No. You don't understand the argument. Let me try to spell it out.

Let's think up a new unit: Planetkiller. It works like this: When you set up Planetkiller, roll d6. If you roll a 6, you automatically win the game. On 1-5, nothing happens.

The problem with Planetkiller is not it's points cost. The problem is that the thing is not fun to play with, with any points cost.

This extreme example demonstrates that when you say that "there is no such thing as over-powered, just under-priced.", you are wrong.

---

Now, the Warlord certainly does not fall into this category of units. The reason is that despite its great strengths, it also has weaknesses.

The problems with the Moray stem from the Support Craft rules that make it ignore LOS. In addition to this, it has long-ranged weapons. E&C calls it a point-and-click unit, and he is right. Playing against the Moray is an exercise in putting out 3 blast markers. It's simple math instead of Epic. It's not fun, even if we came up with a balanced points cost.

What Asaura said.

I wasn't commenting on the Moray, just the statement that unit abilities can always be made acceptable simply by virtue of point cost.

_________________
Neal

DC3, with either 2x MW3+(TKd3) @ 75cm or 6x AP3+/AT3+ @ 60cm?  Who ordered a baby Reaver?

I'd bring that down to 1x MW2+ (TKd3) or 3x AP3+/AT3+, keep ranges the same.  (Also keep secondary armament)  This brings the Moray down to roughly Warhound capabilities.

I know a lot of people have already converted their Morays (or are using Protectors as a direct stand-in), but assuming we bring the Manta down to Reaver-level (in line with the 40k/Apoc statline), would we really NEED a moray?  A Manta would carry about 2x the weaponload of a Moray, plus any transported units.  Who needs 2x Morays (or Moray + Scorp'fish) when you can get a Manta for nearly the same cost?

_________________
"For the Lion and the Emperor!"

@ asaura - Yes I do understand the argument.

Using an extreme example, from a different game, that has no bearing on Epic Tau is not helpful to this discussion (although I agree it does show a problem with a BFG unit. I do understand your point though).

The Moray is nowhere near that powerful.

And the comment about "simple math instead of Epic" doesn't make sense...
What are we trying to do when playing a game of Epic? We're trying to kill or break (ie place blast markers) our opponent and claim objectives. It's that simple. I really do try to play for fun but at some point we are going to have to consider this side of the game when playing.

The Moray does have weaknesses. It cannot hide. It is susceptible to attacks from AT weapons. I think the Critical could be made a little more devastating (engine failure - if you roll a 6 at turns end, falls out of the sky etc in keeping with Reaver/Warlord crits).

I'm speaking from experience with Morays. I cannot remember a game where I've had Morays remain unbroken/not destroyed for the 3 turns. Often, they have been broken before they can activate (recent game with Mark_Logue's Eldar, he broke one using Fire Prisms with the first activation of the game). This sort of thing happens often. This really is a much a do about nothing.

Morays with Support Craft do not break the game. They have abilities somewhere inbetween Warhounds and Reavers and should be priced accordingly (what's wrong with being a "baby Reaver" if it's priced accordingly?).

Guys, again I'm sorry for coming across agro and argumentative. I' don't like this sort of discussion and actually have lost sleep over this sort of thing in the past. That said, in the games we've played (well over a dozen now using Morays, a couple of dozen playing Tau) this just isn't an issue.

_________________
Just call me Steve.

NetEA Rules Chair
NetEA FAQ

Want to play Iron Warriors in Epic Armageddon? Click HERE
Some of my Armies.
My Hobby site.

Actually I would say Epic is fundamentally a manoeuvre game. Range for instance are rarely more than a formation can double or march to achieve. I think overloading the game with units (here I'm talking the proportion of enemy points facing you - everything counts in large amounts) that ignore terrain, both for attack and defence and movement reduces the 'fun factor'. You have otherwise two things happening.
Does the enemy have the necessary long rage firepower to break/kill the Manta (some armies don't)? Or failing that a way of getting firefight troops into range (tricky with air assault against Tau fraught with crossing an excellent AA gauntlet) swiftly.
And secondly who goes first?

I think to date no unit has had to have both factors against it - at least none with the current units firepower (making failure all the more devastating).

Maybe dramatically shortening the ranges would give all the enemy armies a chance and make pointing a bit easier?

And on further reflection maybe support craft need a hard cap of 0-1. Not for balance but for playability.

_________________
If using E-Bay use this link to support Tac Com!
'Abolish red trousers?! Never! Red trousers are France!' – Eugene Etienne, War Minister, 1913
"Gentlemen, we may not make history tomorrow, but we shall certainly change the geography."
General Plumer, 191x

Yes TRC, it is fundamentally a maneuver game where you try to kill your opponents units or break them and then claim real-estate.


That is a possibility. 50-60cm instead of 75cm (on Support Craft main weapons ONLY) would still be playable.

A few Tau Support Craft is not really overloading the game with units that ignore terrain.
It make the Tau different and more interesting/challenging to play and play against.

I'm not in favour of a hard cap (although I understand your reasoning). Aren't you usually a fan of X per Y points? (ie 1 Support Craft per 1500pts)
If I was playing a 5000pt game, one Moray would get a little lost...

_________________
Just call me Steve.

NetEA Rules Chair
NetEA FAQ

Want to play Iron Warriors in Epic Armageddon? Click HERE
Some of my Armies.
My Hobby site.

Support craft are the very definition of point and click gameplay, especially with the over-long ranges they currently have. They almost never have to move at all, which makes very little sense.

Always popped up at least adds a semblance of tactical manouver.

My dislike of the Moray in particular is getting to the stage where I simply won't play against it, as I know it won't be a fun game.

_________________
http://www.troublemakergames.co.uk/
Epic: Hive Development Thread

Though the support craft are more like a nuclear exchange. Just keep firing those missiles and hope you don't all die as well

A few Tau Support Craft is not really overloading the game with units that ignore terrain.
It make the Tau different and more interesting/challenging to play and play against.
I'm not in favour of a hard cap (although I understand your reasoning). Aren't you usually a fan of X per Y points? (ie 1 Support Craft per 1500pts)

_________________
If using E-Bay use this link to support Tac Com!
'Abolish red trousers?! Never! Red trousers are France!' – Eugene Etienne, War Minister, 1913
"Gentlemen, we may not make history tomorrow, but we shall certainly change the geography."
General Plumer, 191x

Which configuration of weapons are being used, and where is the Moray firing from - is it moving at all? Put another way, is your beef with the Weapons (number and range), or with the 'Support Craft' rule that allows them to shoot virtually anywhere?

_________________
"Play up and play the game"

Vitai lampada
Sir Hemry Newbolt

Onyx - I think the problem that some are talking about is that while things can be pointed correctly, they're still not much fun to play against. AMTL isn't much fun to play against in a similar vein. While you can beat that list it doesn't make it much fun to play against. Any list that lets one army take multiple battle titans when all other armies may only take one(by and large), isn't quite right IMO. But that's another debate .

That said, I also think that the Tau list is short on TK weaponry so the Moray is a needed unit. If armies can run around with Warhound-esque titans at will then Tau should have a counter unit. Take out the Moray and the Tau then don't have one unless you're talking Manta and the points cost is prohibtive. AX10 only goes so far and is very fragile - IMO not a solid anti-titan unit. i.e Output to kill an AX10 is minimal in comparison for killing a warhound. e.g it takes one good hit to kill AX10...

Personally, I think changing weapon output is the best idea for resolving this debate.