They aren't all fearless.

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Guns don't break formations. Blast Markers break formations.

Soren is talking about the past, not the present.

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A past I don´t quite remember. Surely during the playtesting I took part in there never was any version that had line troops being Fearless.

But we are not supposed to discuss history here. Let´s keep an eye on whether Decimators have to be restricted or not. With 1/3, I would be disinclined to take them, preferring Air, a Banelord or Deathwheels.

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Which is why I am suggesting keeping them as is under the 1/3 limitation.

You are correct, if they are reduced in power and then placed in with Titans then no-one is going to take them if they could take a Feral or Banelord instead.

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Guns don't break formations. Blast Markers break formations.

Poor Ginger was amoung the number to suffer from the fearless WE horde. It wasn't pretty... Note I'm never going to try it again as it is something now that has been demonstrated with numerous lists and really doesn't need repeating. Oh and it wasn't ol=nly Decimators Gavin, surely it had all the old Helltalons as well?

Decimators as pairs are far worse as they are without void shields like hounds and get enough blast markers to suppress one very quickly. If its a single WE it would then break and get a free double forward into cover and with the free SC rallying is easier. The 1st turn range with them is 75cm with the Ferals providing longer range. If you don't come forward Chaos then takes the initiative and you are away. I was never worried by airpower much as back then there were no flying sources of TK/MW and air asaults once they touched down were dead meat - as they could only ever kill 225 points they were soon onto a losing exchange.

Maybe SHT pricing is needed? 100% of the points for 3 (stick with 675?) or 40% for 1 (275 each - of course this is based on the no brainer MW/IC combo, without IC they would have a tougher time, getting a lot fewer hits against a cunning opponent with plenty of cover)?

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Can anyone explain why the Daemon Prince has 3+ RA (along with practically every other special characteristic including Fearless)?

I played against an army with two of them over the weekend (Slanesh and Khorne before you ask) and I don't think even one of them died all weekend.

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Sir Hemry Newbolt

Its big and tough.

Is there another question lurking in this that you might want to ask as this is rather a backwards way to approach an issue.

Are you trying to say that based on the games you played that the DP is problematic?

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Guns don't break formations. Blast Markers break formations.

I haven't found Daemon Princes to be problematic and I face an army with 2 or 3 on a regular basis (khorne, tzeentch, undivided).

They are tremendously tough I agree, but their formations aren't so they break easy and once they are down to a few plus Prince I point my TK weapons at him.

Its tough to think of him as a TK target at first since he's Infantry, and you can't pick him out of the pack like a WE, and he's tougher than almost everything.

With him losing his TK attacks I don't even fear it Assaulting my Guard that much.

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Ok, lets put it "forwards" then - while only a single figure, 3+ RA is practically impossible to defeat, especially where the unit is part of a number of similar units that soak off other hits. Being fearless means that breaking the unit merely allows it to move closer to objectives, while having an initiative of 1 means there is a 50:50 chance it will rally. While I realize that he is supposed to be tough, this does seem excessive, inappropriate and out of character both with the game mechanics and other units both in the Chaos lists and elsewhere - - - and because they are 50 point upgrades, you can get up to four of the things in even a modest army, which seems totally unreasonable.

And while he is vulnerable to TK weaponry you do have to have that in the army - often a rarity

OK here is a suggestion:- put a 0-1 limit on the upgrade and reduce its armour to 4+RA but with a DC2 statistic (cos it is bigger than the average human, but smaller than a "Great Daemon"). The critical hit would be that it dies anyway, causing all its followers in sight to get a BM like the Eldar Avatar.

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Sir Hemry Newbolt

I don't really recall any comments about the DP in this vein since the older playtest versions of the list. And he was modded since then. I've not really had any problems with him but then I tend to toss him and his Chosen at really nasty formations.

So aside from your opinions that the unit is inappropriate do you have any game related feedback that we could use?

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Guns don't break formations. Blast Markers break formations.

I don't really recall any comments about the DP in this vein since the older playtest versions of the list.

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Well technically he has a 9.3% chance of a hit killing him (3+, 3+, 6+) That's only 11 AP hits to kill!

Edit as someone mentioned crossfire - as he doesn't have TRA her becomes the same hardness as a terminator unit with character as detailed below.

Remember to use those Rhinos for cover

For reference a Warhound is 8 3/4 AT hits to kill assuming no void shield regen and a marine terminator character 4.8 AP hits. The former not having bodyguards, the latter and the demon prince normally getting them.

Yes most armies have a TK weapon or two. For marines just hit them with the terminators, you don't have to get that lucky.

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'Abolish red trousers?! Never! Red trousers are France!' – Eugene Etienne, War Minister, 1913
"Gentlemen, we may not make history tomorrow, but we shall certainly change the geography."
General Plumer, 191x

Cuz, being infantry, it's *technically* a stand of 3 to 7 Daemon Princes on that stand!  *laugh*

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Now living in Boston... any EPIC players want to meet up?

Or Shadowswords :-)

In most of my games I am using the DP to try to take out really hard targets which tends to mean that their target is tough as nails and my opponent tends to protect the targets.

With Shadowswords :-)

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Guns don't break formations. Blast Markers break formations.